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I'm working on a basic DBMS as a pet project and planning to prototype in Python.
I figure there's a reason there are only a few Python databases, and my gut agrees that my favorite language will be too slow to act as an honest performing database, but I'm looking forward to using it to learn what I need quickly.
Would someone please contradict me? Is Python as ill-suited right now for this sort of thing as I think?
EDIT 4/16-
I've posted another getting-started-on-this-project type question if anyone is interested.
(Non-Relational) DBMS Design Resource
It's doubtful that anything you create as a pet project is going to turn out to be popular. Presumably you are mostly doing this as a learning experience and for fun.
Given these facts, there's no reason to stop yourself so early just because you think there might be performance problems. Just do it and have fun with it. The idea of a pure Python database will at least be academically interesting to others.
You can always do some performance profiling to find the bottlenecks and use the usual approaches in speeding things up (CPython, Cython, ctypes, etc.)
Don't be so quick to dismiss Python's huge benefits that you get in return for the performance hit. Namely rapid development.
If performance isn't a huge issue there's no reason Python can't do what you need, it certainly has all of the tools to do so. Designing a database certainly isn't a trivial undertaking, of course, but assuming you have the know-how and Python-fu to put in everything you need (of course, being helped by all of us here at SO ;) ) then the basic building blocks are all there.
For reference, there's at least one DBMS written in pure Python that I know of: KirbyBase
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I'm cobbling together some sort of an introduction to Python, but one that focuses on the community and the ecosystem around Python rather than just the language. With How to Think Like a Computer Scientist and other great tutorials, it's easy to get familiar with the language, but it took me a fair while before I knew what The Cheese Shop, or, err, PyPi is about, how pip and virtualenv work and why you should use them, where you should go for help, the interesting blogs that you should follow, how your code should look (PEP 8, writing pythonic code) and so on. The 'soft stuff'.
What confused you the most when you just started out with Python? Are there certain things that you would've wanted to know about, or resources you wish you would have stumbled upon earlier than you did? People to know about?
I found a few similar questions on StackOverflow (e.g. here) but nothing really close to what I'd like to hear from you guys. Hope this question doesn't feel too subjective to your tastes :-)
(And, if you'd like to help out, feel free to send a message.)
I think one of the most important thing a beginner need to know about Python ecosystem is that it's a general purpose language surrounded by specialized libs. Experienced pythonistas know them, but a newbie can't:
Don't stop to tkinter : go wx, gtk or qt.
Don't dev web code by hands : use TurboGears, Pylons, Web.py or Django.
Don't parse HTML / XML with hard tools : use lxml or beautifulsoup.
Don't make syscall to imagemagik : use PIL.
Don't make advanced maths manually : use NumPy and SciPy.
Don't access simple databases by hand : use ORM like SQLAlchemy.
Don't reinvent sysadmin wheels : use Fabric.
etc.
The main ones should be listed in a book with guidances to choose among them.
"What confused you the most when you just started out with Python?"
Rule 2 of learning Python: Any general-purpose module or framework you think you want has already been written. Several times.
The hard part is realizing that your idea is
Not unique.
Been already improved upon before you even starting thinking about it.
Already posted somewhere.
So, code less and search more. Search widely and flexibly until you find things that are similar to what you want to do.
Realize that you might have a name you think is descriptive. But other folks may call it something different. Join the community, adopt their naming. You may not like the phrase "ORM", but that's what it's called.
Realize that your idea, no matter how sound it seems, may be really poor. When you find a framework that seems to have "needless extra features", you may be missing something from your idea.
Realize that your idea, no matter how "intuitive" it seems, may be really poor. When you find a framework that seems "counter-intuitive", the problem could be yours. Learn theirs first, then compare and contrast after you've mastered theirs. Until you've mastered theirs, keep searching and learning.
A few points related to the ecosystem and indirectly the community:
I wished I had been reminded more about the Batteries included. I think people should be told to print-out the Table of Contents of the Standard Library and keep it under their pillow, for frequent reviews (that advice, I finally took, several years into it, from an online intro/beginner's video presentation!). The [relative] stability, extensive but relevant content of the Std Lib speaks to the thoughtful governance of the community leaders and its beloved BDFL.
I think newcomers can also be "warned" (the word is maybe too strong, too unfair) about the extreme variety of PiPy. This reflects the vibrant, smart and diverse (in terms of background, domain of application, interests...) collective of users and contributors. This however can be overwhelming and possibly risky as all packages in there are not "prime time ready" (But many are and "saved my life" many times over).
Even if you feel too new to Python, don't only use the libraries, do peek under the hood! This is true of many languages, but maybe particularly of Python, there's much to be learned from perusing various source code. The reasons this may be particular true for Python are intrinsic to the language itself (multi-paradigms, hi level of abstraction...) but also because of the relative uniformity of coding (and architecting) style and because of the general level of collaboration within the community.
"What confused you the most when you just started out with Python?"
Rule 1 of learning Python: Use the Source, Luke.
There are question on SO asking for "good" source from which to learn Python. The best answers amount to "read the libraries that came with Python."
One can say that the libraries that come with Python are quirky. In places. Which makes them all the better for learning from.
There's a community of like-minded people who are not clones.
Open source software is the highest-quality software you'll ever get to work with, but it's not created by paid developers who will rigidly enforce standards.
explaining what a PEP is, how it is written and who wrote them, where we can find them. PEPs give a lot of background informations about a specific feature of the language. they also are the tool which shows how fast evolving python is.
(i wish i had read some PEPs earlier, but i was not really aware of them, although they are frequently linked in the manual)
From PEP 20:
import this
(aka, the Zen of Python)
developing a python package that can be installed with easy_install etc... I consider it equivalent to developing a jar or dll etc....
on the same token, developing said package(s) with virtualenv or buildout
If I would have known those things sooner, I would have probably used python for more than just scripting way back when I first started using it.
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I was reading about Go, and I can see that it's very good and can be a language used by many developers in some months, but I want to decide a simple thing: Learn Go or improve my Python or Ruby knowledge?
Years developing with Python: 1
Years developing with Ruby: 0.3
If you're just looking to have fun and expand your horizons, then I'd learn Go, since you already know some Python.
If you're looking to improve as a developer, I'd personally recommend working on an actual project (using Python, as it's the language you have the most experience with):
This will take your (Python and general) programming skills to a whole new level
If you choose an interesting project, for example a semi-popular open source project, you'll even have some concrete result to show for your extra work. This will help your resume, help you meet other people interested in programming, etc.
I personally believe that spending the time you would have spent learning a new language by coding actual things you can use, is usually a net win (unless of course, like I said, you're just doing it for some fun recreation or relaxation).
In reality, you should do both; if it's what you want. For me though, out of the two, I'd only look at Python. I have no real interest in languages that are so new.
It depends on what your goals and your needs are.
If you're looking to develop your skills for a job, then go with Python or Ruby. You're unlikely to see Go show up in the workplace for quite some time (if ever) unless you're working at Google. (Even then it's questionable.)
If you want to have fun, do what you want. I think the best decider is, pick a project you want to work on and then choose the language that is best suited for that project.
Other things to consider:
Each language is suited to certain tasks. Go is compiled into machine code, whereas Python and Ruby run in interpreters. Go lends itself to somewhat lower level work. It's also good for concurrent tasks. Higher level tasks might be more suited for Python or Ruby.
Go is an experimental language that's likely to experience changes. These changes may be backward incompatible. If you learn it now, in 6 months or a year you may have to re-learn some of it because it's changed. That said, it can be fun to be a part of something that's on the bleeding edge. And if it does happen to become "the next big thing," you're in on the ground level.
How long have you been working with Python?
If it were me, I'd do my best to maybe get a working knowledge of Go (basic syntax, some familiarity with unique language features), and continue with Python as I normally would.
Eventually you might come up with a small project that Go seems suited for (or you can come up with one now!) and really dive into the language that way.
There's no reason to limit yourself to just one. :)
It's up to you. You should probably do both if you can, because that way you will have more tools on your metaphorical programmer's belt.
There are a number of things that I think are worth considering whenever I'm in a similar dilemma.
Is a new language (not just unfamiliar, but actually new, like Go) likely to catch on? (If so, it will become practically NECESSARY to learn it, rather than just a good idea.)
You will need to spend some time to learn the unfamiliar language. Will this time investment result in some sort of positive return? The obvious one here is development time (i.e., can you eventually get more done and get back the time you spent to learn it), but if the language is superior in other ways (runs faster or with less memory, is best for your particular problem domain) those might factor in too.
Will learning the unfamiliar language allow you to solve a relevant/important/urgent problem that cannot be solved with what you already know?
Unfortunately, none of us can tell you how to weigh each of these concerns. You'll need to think about it really carefully and come to the answer on your own.
First of all, it's a very very personal question, and my first recommendation will be , if you think so, try Go for one month or so, learning the basics, and then deciding... Each one has the mind fitted more to some particular languages than another...
I also would recommend keep using both Python and Ruby, if you're interested, you have enough experience to use them comfortably (I think), so the next months you could experience a great boost in your experience using them...
For an strict utilitarian point of view, learning Go extensively could be a risk move, but worthy if begins to being using and you're one of the very few people with some experience when everyone are just beginning to learn the syntax...
These two languages accomplish different goals. Go is only 20% slower than C. If you want crazy speed and easy parallelism, then learn Go. However, readability was not a design goal. Also, it has no exceptions. It can be used for real-time products though ...
IMO you should improve your Python knowledge. Python is a widely adopted language, whereas
Go is still at a very, very early stage and there's no reason to believe that it will become successful.
From a purely utilitarian perspective, you will get a lot more value from learning Python.
It's not easy to answer this without knowing how good your Python is, or what you do, or where you'd use Go. If you're looking for employment, I suspect Python is the way to go. I'd be surprised to find anyone is using Go for major projects at the moment (outside Google).
Note also that Go is by no means finalised. See here for the Go roadmap, and note the potential changes in the future. So you may be trying to hit a moving target currently.
Python is a available for most operating systems, it's generally accepted as a scriptin language, and it has matured to production quality.
Go is a research language that's only available in beta quality on Linux and OS X. Nowhere else. It's interesting from an intellectual point of view in that you can learn and apply a few concepts (typed channels combined with easy multitasking) that are otherwise difficult to use.
As for Go, you might perhaps take a look at AT&T's "Plan 9" operating system first. It comes with a programming language called "Aleph" with also is C-based, has channels and multitasking. Looks to me like Go is a reimplementation of Aleph on more main-stream operating systems.
I heard that Python is easy and powerful, but I don't know if I'm on the right track to learn it. I learn from online tutorials, I know basic maths calculation and printing strings, but how long will it take to develop something useful? I don't really know the exact uses of Python, though.
I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for, but I think one or more of the following may be the next step you're looking for.
Perhaps you would like to use a variety of different protocols for a networking program, you could check out Twisted.
Or perhaps if you would like to make a web application or blog you can check out Django.
Or perhaps you would like to make a GUI application, you could take a look at TkInter.
Or perhaps you would like to get into game programming, you could take a look at Pygame.
Or perhaps you would like to ... you can take a look at the Python Package Index.
How long will it take? This depends on your programming background in general. The best way is simply to jump into the topic you're interested in and start on a mini project.
Python is a general purpose language. You can use it to make a lot of different things, but it's best suited at stuff that doesn't require a lot of speed, since the high level features have a performance cost.
It's hard to tell how long it will take you to develop something useful. The other day I made a script to help on a small computer administration thing. You could do that with a week or two of experience (or maybe less), depending on your previous programming knowledge and the amount of time you put into studying. However, if you want to make something bigger (maybe an audio player, an IM client, mid-sized stuff like that), you probably need some weeks or months of practice. It depends a lot on the time and energy you invest in programming.
I'd suggest to follow either the official tutorial or Dive Into Python.
In general, it depends on you. Python can be used for simple or complex stuff, and for many different applications. It depends on what you want.
Have a look at Mark Pilgrim's freely available book called Dive Into Python. I think it's a better choice to start with than online tutorials. The best way to learn a language is to start to work on a project. As I read this book, I started to implement a simple image viewer. As I advanced with the book, I could refine the project progressively. Invent something that is interesting to you.
I also suggest you taking notes when you learn a programming language. When you learn something that can be useful later, make some notes with a simple example, e.g. how to read a text file line by line, convert int to str, convert str to int, basic list operations, etc. Later on you can use these building blocks in a larger project.
Like every other programming language In order to learn Python you need to write a program with it.
Find a pet project and use python to code it. I also recommend Dive into python" (like anyone else that answered your question).
A few months ago I've decided to learn IronPython (.NET implementation of python), I'vve started by reading "Dive into python" and a few tutorials and then I've started coding a simple board game using IronPython (you can read about it in my blog).
In order to learn a new programming language you need to use it and then you'll know how and where to use it.
The best way to learn how to do something useful is come up with something useful you want to do. Make sure it's not way out of your league, then do research to accomplish it. That's how a lot of programmers learn languages.
What other programming background do you have? What programming interests do you have -- web apps, numerical / scientific computations, games, ...? Python is good at many different things, for both beginners and experienced programmers, but the most fruitful approach(es) to it do depend on what you already know, and what really interests you!-)
Bram who invented bittorrent with python says python is good for writing protocols in addition to aforementioned webapps, games and general purpose. Compared to Java python solves same problem in less code and less ways in longer development and VM time where Java has more ways solve same problem in more code and faster VM and faster development time.
Making a comparison between Python, and other languages would not help, as there is always somebody who would find a reason to prefer one language instead of another.
If you want a scripting language that is powerful, but that it is easier to read than perl, that doesn't have a curly bracket syntax, and that allows you to learn something about object oriented programming, then Python is the language for you.
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I'm a newbie to programming. I had 1 semester of computer science (we used java). I got an A in the course and was able to do everything assigned, however I'm not sure I really understood it. I ignored the text and learned by looking at sample programs and then trial and error. I was ahead of the class except for two guys who came in knowing java or another OOP language.
I'd like to learn Python. I'm also going to build a second PC from extra parts I have and use linux. Basically, I want to enhance my knowledge of computers. Thats my motivation.
Now on learning python are there any good programming theory books that would be useful? Or should I read up on more on how computers operate on the lowest levels? I don't think I know enough to ask the question I want.
I guess to make it simple, I am asking what should I know to make the most of learning python. This is not for a career. This is from a desire to know. I am no longer a computer science major (it also would not have any direct applications to my anticipated career.)
I'm not looking to learn in "30 days" or "1 week" or whatever. So, starting from a very basic level is fine with me.
Thanks in advance. I did a search and didn't quite find what I was looking for.
UPDATE: Thanks for all the great advice. I found this site at work and couldn't find it on my home computer, so I am just getting to read now.
My recommendation is always to start at the high level of abstraction. You don't need to know how logic gates work and how you can use them to build a CPU -- it's cool stuff, but it's cool stuff that makes a lot more sense once you've messed around at the higher levels. Python is therefore an excellent choice as a learning aid.
How to Think Like A Computer Scientist: Learning With Python is available on the Internet and is an excellent introduction to the high-level concepts that make computers go. And it's even Python-specific.
If you're looking to have your brain turned inside-out, SICP will do a good job of it. I don't recommend it as a first text, though; it's heavy going.
Both of these books are high-level. They won't teach you anything about the low-level details like memory structures or what a CPU actually does, but that's something I would reserve for later anyway.
D'A
Specifically for the Python part of your question I can highly recommend http://www.diveintopython3.net/ by Mark Pilgrim. That's free and pretty well structured.
Python is a nice choice, you will have fun!
http://www.pythonchallenge.com/
I think this Challenge is perfect to get in touch with major python strengths and there is a nice forum with a lot of interessting Python Threads for each Level.
A lot of this depends on what your overall goal is for learning Python. Are you viewing it as learning a second language or getting a better understanding of computers and how to effectively use a programming language?
From what it sounds like you want to gain a better understanding about computers and be a better programmer. Learning a new languages such as Python will probably not help you in this respect. I still recommend learning Python if you're interested, but once you have learned one programming language, much of learning a new language is getting familiar with the syntax and data types (usually).
You had mentioned you were unsure about understanding the material in the class you took. If you feel you don't understand fundamental concepts (such as loops, classes, etc), then learning Python will help your understanding of programming as most books/guides revisit these concepts (Learning Python, 3rd Edition should help with this). If you understand these concepts, but you are unsure of how to apply these concepts, then my recommendation would be to learn about data structures and common algorithms (e.g. sorting, searching, etc).
Speaking from personal experience, I didn't know how to apply what I learned from the introductory programming class to personal programming projects. Learning about data structures from a class helped solidify those concepts I had previously learned by providing algorithms/data structures that build off of this previous knowledge. This class also allowed me to think differently about problems in terms of using these data structures.
To learn about the different types of data structures, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_data_structures. Usually, each data structure is useful for a specific purpose (e.g. binary search trees are good for searching sorted information). Unfortunately, I don't have any book recommendations (our class didn't use a book). Googling "Data Structures" should be a good starting point.
Data structures also got me to think about how efficient an implementation is. The "complexity" of an algorithm determines how long a given piece of code takes to run. This makes it easy to compare other implementations and determine which is better.
I would also like to comment that when it comes to learning computer concepts, the best way to learn is by doing. A book/class can only explain so much, and the rest you have to learn on your own. Each person learns differently, and programming is a way of taking the material you read about and think about it in a way that is best understood by you.
I hope I answered your question. At this point, you don't really need to worry about the underlying hardware. This is useful to know if you plan on doing this as a career (which you aren't), or want to make optimizations specific to the hardware you're running on (in which case, you wouldn't want to use Python). Python is a good choice to learn about data structures as it implements a lot of them for you, but it's important to know what they are used for.
If you are still in school, take a data structures class and see what you think of it. If you like it, I'd advise reconsidering the role of programming/CS in your career. You don't have to major in it, but consider a minor or at least a position that makes use of these skills you are learning. I say this because despite this not being your major, you are interested in understanding how a computer works and taking initiatives such as learning Python, building your own computer, and installing Linux.
If you have any further questions, feel free to ask. Good luck!
Python is a high-level language, so it wouldn't give you much direct benefit to learn how computers operate at the lowest levels.
Don't get me wrong - I do strongly believe that the low-level operation of a computer, e.g. assembly language and hardware, is something that every good programmer should be familiar with, because it does help you program more effectively in whatever language you are using, high-level or low-level. But it won't make much of a difference in your Python coding until you've gotten quite a bit of experience. If you're just starting out with Python, I would suggest staying away from the low-level operation of computers and concentrating on the basics of Python for now. Once you're comfortable with that, you can move on to something like C and then it might be appropriate to start looking at some lower-level stuff.
As for what you should know... not much, I guess. Python is a great language to start out programming in. It keeps simple things simple but it's rich enough to let you work your way up to a high level of complexity. I'd suggest probably looking at a tutorial; the one I happen to know is on the Python website, but I'm not claiming it's necessarily the best one for you. A Google search should give you plenty to get started with.
I started Python (as my first programming language) few months ago. I would recommend Learning Python, by Mark Lutz to begin with. But keep in mind that the key to learn well is to be open-minded, patient and willing to work and look up for things you don't understand.
Have fun!
I would suggest looking at the online book at http://www.diveintopython.org/ to learn python.
As for python projects, I would try learning the Django Framework. It is a framework for building web applications. They have a great tutorial for getting started with it. This would also give you experience building a webserver on a Linux box.
enhance my knowledge of computers
Well, what do you exactly mean by that? Python, or any other high level language, are designed to actually hide all the nasty details. That's one of the reasons, why it's apt for non-pros like (e.g. scientist).
If you want to know how stuff actually work, you should learn pure C. But then again, if you're not planning to have any career related to SC, there's not much point to it. Learn some more advanced algorithms and data structures instead. That'll result you more interesting, useful and is platform- and language-agnostic.
Short answer: all of them
Long answer:
Learning your first language is always a challenge, and after your Java experience, a lot of other languages will seem a lot simpler. That said, the real challenge in learning programming languages is learning when to use a particular language -- you can find decent docs for whatever you choose when the time comes.
As a concrete start, hop over to wikipedia and browse their categorical list of programming languages, click on all of the names you've ever heard (and anything else that catches your eye) and if the article has a code example, give it a minute or two to sink in (the rest of the article will help, of course). The point here is not to master every single language (which is (1) pointless and (2) impossible), but to get a handle on what is out there. For any language, there is a handful of other languages like it, and if you can at least read one language in most of those categories, you will have mastered a fairly large chunk of the programming universe. When a new project comes up, and something about it reminds you of some language you found, you can just learn that language as part of doing the project. It may sound like a lot of work, but after, say, your fifth big language, you completely lose count and just accidentally learn new ones all the time without noticing.
When you stop relating to one language as your home-language, you'll be able to learn from examples in other languages even if you've never programmed in them. Personally, I've only written a few Haskell programs, but being able to read Haskell has exposed me to a lot of ideas that I could recycle in more practical Scala and Python programs (oh yeah, after you learn Python, give Scala a browse and you'll probably never use Java again)
Even finding the best language for the job isn't the whole story. Having a lot of tools in your toolbox lets you throw together amazing stuff in short amounts of time by writing each piece of your project in the easiest language your could. This may not be appropriate for all projects, but, boy, can you make some impressive demos.
It takes many years to get to the point where no programming language is totally foreign (or at least foreign for more than a day of hacking), but I think it is a very healthy and realistic long-term plan to attempt to conquer a representative sample of each rough category. Good luck!
Since Python wasn't my first language, I found the Python Cookbook helpful for learning
What Python was capable of
The idiomatic, of "pythonic," way to do something.
Programming language teaching has always been associated with a cliche statement while learning. "Write programs to learn programming". I too would suggest the same.
If you are going to start from basics. This is of course, the most suggested starting point. It is lengthy, but it is worth all the time. http://www.diveintopython.org/
Because you are into some Java, this might be even better for you. http://www.swaroopch.com/notes/Python. Start either python 2.x or 3.0. Me personally am a fan of python 3. But for a starter it could be hard to get samples, and references to programs online. So for you 2.x might be better. But I leave it upto you.
Like I started "Write programs..". You can start here.
http://www.spoj.pl/ - a programming challenges site, where you can choose from a wide variety of topics, mostly algorithms and has huge question database. Of course the choice of programming languages is upto you.
http://projecteuler.net/ - a mathematical questions site, here you just have to submit an answer, cheating is allowed here, so be free to borrow logic from others, but try writing the program yourself.
After you think you have gained sufficient proficiency in python, you can try recipes in this book python cookbook http://www.amazon.com/Python-Cookbook-Alex-Martelli/dp/0596007973.
For application development, after you think you can handle it, start on wxPython or PyQt. I personally would suggest PyQt. It is responsive, fast, and has decent development cycle, I have not used WxPython for long, but few programs I wrote, long back, didn't feel so great. Yet again, its upto you.