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I have yet to come across an answer that makes me WANT to start using virtual environments. I understand how they work, but what I don’t understand is how can someone (like me) have hundreds of Python projects on their drive, almost all of them use the same packages (like Pandas and Numpy), but if they were all in separate venv’s, you’d have to pip install those same packages over and over and over again, wasting so much space for no reason. Not to mention if any of those also require a package like tensorflow.
The only real benefit I can see to using venv’s in my case is to mitigate version issues, but for me, that’s really not as big of an issue as it’s portrayed. Any project of mine that becomes out of date, I update the packages for it.
Why install the same dependency for every project when you can just do it once for all of them on a global scale? I know you can also specify —-global-dependencies or whatever the tag is when creating a new venv, but since ALL of my python packages are installed globally (hundreds of dependencies are pip installed already), I don’t want the new venv to make use of ALL of them? So I can specify only specific global packages to use in a venv? That would make more sense.
What else am I missing?
UPDATE
I’m going to elaborate and clarify my question a bit as there seems to be some confusion.
I’m not so much interested in understanding HOW venv’s work, and I understand the benefits that can come with using them. What I’m asking is:
Why would someone with (for example) have 100 different projects that all require tensorflow to be installed into their own venv’s. That would mean you have to install tensorflow 100 separate times. That’s not just a “little” extra space being wasted, that’s a lot.
I understand they mitigate dependency versioning issues, you can “freeze” packages with their current working versions and can forget about them, great. And maybe I’m just unique in this respect, but the versioning issue (besides the obvious difference between python 2 and 3) really hasn’t been THAT big of an issue. Yes I’ve run into it, but isn’t it better practise to keep your projects up to date with the current working/stable versions than to freeze them with old, possibly no longer supported versions? Sure it works, but that doesn’t seem to be the “best” option to me either.
To reiterate on the second part of my question, what I would think is, if I have (for example) tensorflow installed globally, and I create a venv for each of my 100 tensorflow projects, is there not a way to make use of the already globally installed tensorflow inside of the venv, without having to install it again? I know in pycharm and possibly the command line, you can use a — system-site-packages argument (or whatever it is) to make that happen, but I don’t want to include ALL of the globally installed dependencies, cuz I have hundreds of those too. Is —-system-site-packages -tensorflow for example a thing?
Hope that helps to clarify what I’m looking for out of this discussion because so far, I have no use for venv’s, other than from everyone else claiming how great they are but I guess I see it a bit differently :P
(FINAL?) UPDATE
From the great discussions I've had with the contributors below, here is a summation of where I think venv's are of benefit and where they're not:
USE a venv:
You're working on one BIG project with multiple people to mitigate versioning issues among the people
You don't plan on updating your dependencies very often for all projects
To have a clearer separation of your projects
To containerize your project (again, for distribution)
Your portfolio is fairly small (especially in the data science world where packages like Tensorflow are large and used quite frequently across all of them as you'd have to pip install the same package to each venv)
DO NOT use a venv:
Your portfolio of projects is large AND requires a lot of heavy dependencies (like tensorflow) to mitigate installing the same package in every venv you create
You're not distributing your projects across a team of people
You're actively maintaining your projects and keeping global dependency versions up to date across all of them (maybe I'm the only one who's actually doing this, but whatever)
As was recently mentioned, I guess it depends on your use case. Working on a website that requires contribution from many people at once, it makes sense to all be working out of one environment, but for someone like me with a massive portfolio of Tensorflow projects, that do not have versioning issues or the need for other team members, it doesn't make sense. Maybe if you plan on containerizing or distributing the project it makes sense to do so on an individual basis, but to have (going back to this example) 100 Tensorflow projects in your portfolio, it makes no sense to have 100 different venv's for all of them as you'd have to install tensorflow 100 times into each of them, which is no different than having to pip install tensorflow==2.2.0 for specific old projects that you want to run, which in that case, just keep your projects up to date.
Maybe I'm missing something else major here, but that's the best I've come up with so far. Hope it helps someone else who's had a similar thought.
I'm a data scientist and sometimes I run into these things called "virtual environments" and I don't get what the use case is? I already have all of these packages and modules and widgets downloaded! Why should I set up a separate place where I manage all of the stuff I'm already managing globally?
Python is a very powerful tool. In this answer consider two such ways to swing the metaphorical hammer:
Data Science
Software Engineering
For a data scientist (working alone) using Python to write a poc for a research paper, make a lstm nn, or predict the price of TSLA dependent on the frequency of Elon Musk's tweets all that really matters is being able to use the best library (tensorflow, pytorch, sklearn, ...) for whatever task they're trying to get done. In whatever directory they're working in when they need it. It is very tempting to use one global Python installation and just use the same stuff everywhere. Frankly, this is probably fine. As it's just one person managing their own space. So the configuration of their machine would be one single Python environment and everything, everywhere uses it. Or if the data scientist wanted to they could have a single directory that contains a virtual environment and some sub directories containing all the scripts (projects) they work on.
Now consider a software engineer who has multiple git repos with complete CI/CD pipelines that each build into separate entities that then get deployed to some cloud environment. Them and the 9 other people on their team need to be able to be sure that they are all making changes that won't break any piece of the code. For example in Python 3.6 the function dict.popitem subtly changed from returning a random element in a dict to LIFO order guaranteed. It's pretty easy to see that that could cause issues if Jerry had implemented a function that relies on the original random nature of the function and Bob implemented a function with the LIFO behavior guaranteed. This team of engineers would have git repos that each contain a single virtual environment (a single isolated Python environment) that allows them to manage dependencies for that "project".
The data scientist has one Python installation/environment that allows them to do whatever.
The engineer has a Python installation and a bunch of environments so that they can work across multiple repos with multiple people and (hopefully) nothing breaks.
I can see where you're coming from with your question. It can seem like a lot of work to set up and maintain multiple virtual environments (venvs), especially when many of your projects might use similar or even the same packages.
However, there are some good reasons for using venvs even in cases where you might be tempted to just use a single global environment. One reason is that it can be helpful to have a clear separation between your different projects. This can be helpful in terms of organization, but it can also be helpful if you need to use different versions of packages in different projects.
If you try to share a single venv among all of your projects, it can be difficult to use different versions of packages in those projects when necessary. This is because the packages in your venv will be shared among all of the projects that use that venv. So, if you need to use a different version of a package in one project, you would need to change the version in the venv, which would then affect all of the other projects that use that venv. This can be confusing and make it difficult to keep track of what versions of packages are being used in which projects.
Another issue with sharing a single venv among all of your projects is that it can be difficult to share your code with others. This is because they would need to have access to the same environment (which contains lots of stuff unrelated to the single project you are trying to share). This can be confusing and inconvenient for them.
So, while it might seem like a lot of work to set up and maintain multiple virtual environments, there are some good reasons for doing so. In most cases, it is worth the effort in order to have a clear separation between your different projects and to avoid confusion when sharing your code with others.
It's the same principle as in monouser vs multiuser, virtualization vs no virtualization, containers vs no containers, monolithic apps vs micro services, etcetera; to avoid conflict, maintain order, easily identify a state of failure, among other reasons as scalability or portability. If necessary apply it, and always keeping in mind KISS philosophy as well, managing complexity, not creating more.
And as you have already mentioned, considering that resources are finite.
Besides, a set of projects that share the same base of dependencies of course that is not the best example of separation necessity.
In addition to that, technology evolve taking into account not redundancy of knowingly base of commonly used resources.
Well, there are a few advantages:
with virtual environments, you have knowledge about your project's dependencies: without virtual environments your actual environment is going to be a yarnball of old and new libraries, dependencies and so on, such that if you want to deploy a thing into somewhere else (which may mean just running it in your new computer you just bought) you can reproduce the environment it was working in
you're eventually going to run into something like the following issue: project alpha needs version7 of library A, but project beta needs library B, which runs on version3 of library A. if you install version3, A will probably die, but you really need to get B working.
it's really not that complicated, and will save you a lot of grief in the long term.
There are several motivations for venvs,
or for their moral equivalent: conda environments.
1. author a package
You create a cool "scrape my favorite site" package
which graphs a timeseries of some widget product.
Naturally it depends on BeautifulSoup.
You happened to have html5lib 1.1 lying around
due to some previous project, so you tested with that.
A user downloads your scrape-widget package from pypi,
happens to have lxml 4.7.1 available, and finds
that scraping crashes when using that library.
Wouldn't it have been better for your package
to specify that user shall run against the same
deps that you tested with?
2. use a package
Same scenario, but now you're using someone's scrape-widget
package. Author tested with lxml 4.7.1 but you have lxml 4.9.1,
which behaves differently, and this makes the app behave
differently, crashing in ways the author never saw.
3. use two packages
You want to run both scrape-frobozz-magic-widgets
and scrape-acme-widget. Their authors tested using
different versions of requests, and of lxml.
Changing dep changes the app behavior.
You can only use one or the other, unless you're
willing to re-run pip quite frequently.
4. collaborate on a team
You write code that has deps.
So does your colleague.
You have to coordinate things,
so testing on one laptop
instills confidence the test
would succeed on other laptops.
5. use CI
You have a teammate named Jenkins, and
want to communicate to him that you used
a specific version of a dep when you saw the test succeed.
6. get a new laptop
Things were working.
Then your laptop exploded,
you got a new one,
and you (quickly) want to see things work again.
Some of your deps were downrev, due to
recently released bugs and breaking changes.
Reading a file full of dep versions from your github repo
lets you immediately reproduce the state of the world
back when things were working.
While it is possible to simply use pip freeze to get the current environment, it is not suitable to require an environment as bleeding edge as what I am used too.
Moreover, some developer tooling are only available on recent version of packages (think type annotations), but not needed for users.
My target users may want to use my package on slowly upgrading machines, and I want to get my requirements as low as possible.
For example, I cannot require better than Python 3.6 (and even then I think some users may be unable to use the package).
Similarly, I want to avoid requiring the last Numpy or Matplotlib versions.
Is there a (semi-)automatic way of determining the oldest compatible version of each dependency?
Alternatively, I can manually try to build a conda environment with old packages, but I would have to try pretty randomly.
Unfortunately, I inherited a medium-sized codebase (~10KLoC) with no automated test yet (I plan on making some, but it takes some time, and it sadly cannot be my priority).
The requirements were not properly defined either so that I don't know what it has been run with two years ago.
Because semantic versionning is not always honored (and because it may be difficult from a developper standpoint to determine what is a minor or major change exactly for each possible user), and because only a human can parse release notes to understand what has changed, there is no simple solution.
My technical approach would be to create a virtual environment with a known working combination of Python and libraries versions. From there, downgrade one version by one version, one lib at a time, verifying that it still works fine (may be difficult if it is manual and/or long to check).
My social solution would be to timebox the technical approach to take no more than a few hours. Then settle for what you have reached. Indicate in the README that lib requirements may be overblown and that help is welcome.
Without fast automated tests in which you are confident, there is no way to automate the exploration of the N-space (each library is a dimension) to find a some minimums.
Our software is modular and I have about 20 git repos in one project.
If a test fails, it is sometimes hard to find the matching commit since several developers work on these 20 repos.
I know the test worked yesterday and fails reproachable today.
Sometimes I use git-bisec, but this works only for one git repo.
Often changes in two git repos make a test fail.
I could write a dirty script which loops over my N git repos myself, but before doing so, I would like to know how experts would solve this.
I use Python, Django and pytest, but AFAIK this does not matter for this question.
I personally prefer to use repo tool to manage complex projects. Put those 20 repos in manifest.xml and each time when build starts create patch manifest if build fails do repo diff manifests to see what was changed and where.
There is category of QA tool for "reverse dependency" CI builds. So your higher level projects get rebuilt every time a lower level change is made. At scale it can be resource intensive.
The entire class of problem is removed if you stop dealing with repo-to-repo relationships and start following version release methodology for the subcomponents. Then you can track the versions of lower-level dependencies and know when you go to upgrade that it broke. Your CI could build against several versions of dependencies if you wanted to systematize it.
Git submodules accomplish that tracking for individual commits, so you again get to decide when to incorporate changes from lower levels. (Notably, that can also be used like released versions if you only ever update to tagged release commits.)
I just installed git and GitHub and the reason is that it's a version control system (that's the only thing I know about it). I am starting a project (a game in Python) and it's going to stretch a long time as I am going to learn Python in deep while working on this. I want to be organized while working on this project and that's why I need a version control system.
So, the thing is:
1. I am the only programmer.
2. I don't want to share the code anywhere.
3. I want to work locally only on my system.
4. It's not open source (for the beginning)
So I want to know if GitHub functions according to my needs and how should I create local code repositories and manage my code?
P.S. I am sorry if it looks all messed up, but I couldn't find any better way to put forward.
Yes, using GitHub is a great idea.
Even if you are working alone, git will help you backup your code and will let you go to older versions in case your latest code stops working.
If you are a student, then you can get a plan to have private repositories for a couple of years for free. If you are not a student and privacy is very important for you, then you can buy private repositories in GitHub.
Virtually all of the information that you might need will be here: http://git-scm.com/doc
I wrote 2-3 Plugins for pyload.
Sometimes they change and i let users know over forum that theres a new version.
To avoid that i'd like to give my scripts an auto selfupdate function.
https://github.com/Gutz-Pilz/pyLoad-stuff/blob/master/FileBot.py
Something like that easy to setup ?
Or someone can point me in a direction ?
Thanks in advance!
It is possible, with some caveats. But it can easily become very complicated. Before you know it, your auto-update "feature" will be bigger than the original code!
First you need to have an URL that always contains the latest version. Since you are using github, using raw.githubusercontent might do very well.
Have your code download the latest version from that URL (e.g. using requests), and compare the version with that in the current code. For this purpose I would recommend a simple integer version number, so you don't need any complicated parsing logic.
However, you might want to consider only running that check once per day, or once per week. If you do it every time your file is run, the server might get hammered! So now you have to save a file with the date when the check was last done, and read that to see if it is time to run the check again. This file will need to be saved in a location that you can access on every platform your code is liable to run on. That in itself can be a challenge.
If it is just a single python file, which is installed as the user that is running it, updating is relatively easy. But if the original was installed as root in the global Python directory and your script is running as a nonprivileged user it will be difficult. Especially if it is running as a plugin and cannot ask the user for (temporary) root credentials to install the file.
And what are you going to do if a newer version has more dependencies outside the standard library?
Last but not least, as a sysadmin I don't really like auto-updating software. Especially for critical system infrstructure I like to be able to estimate the consequences before an update.