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I have to develop a site which has to accomodate around 2000 users a day and speed is a criterion for it. Moreover, the site is a user oriented one where the user will be able to log in and check his profile, register for specific events he/she wants to participate in. The site is to be hosted on a VPS server.Although I have pretty good experience with python and PHP but I have no idea how to use either of the framework. We have plenty of time to experiment and learn one of the above frameworks.Could you please specify which one would be preferred for such a scenario considering speed, features, and security of the site.
Thanks,
niting
This is a very subjective question but personally I'd recommend Django. Python is a very nice language to use and the Django framework is small, easy to use, well documented and also has a pretty active community.
This choice was made partly because of my dislike for PHP though, so take the recommendation with a pinch of salt.
Most of the frameworks out there nowadays are fast enough to serve whatever needs you will have. It really depends on in which environment you feel most comfortable. Though there are nuances here and there, MVC frameworks share a lot of the same principles, so whichever you choose to use is really a matter of which you most enjoy using.
So, if you like Python more, there's your answer. Use a Python framework, and Django is the best. If you like PHP more (which I personally don't), you've got some more decisions to make. But any of the PHP frameworks are fine. They really are. Just pick one that looks nice with comprehensive documentation and get to work.
I've worked with CakePHP and Django and I really recommend Django. I don't know too much about CodeIgniter, but I remember ruling it out when I was evaluating frameworks myself about a year ago. CakePHP seemed much more developed at the time.
First of all, the Django community is much bigger and has spent a lot of time focusing on reusable apps. This means that you get a lot of functionality for free. Pair this with the django admin, and you have a lot of things already done for you. I haven't kept up with the PHP frameworks much, but I'm pretty sure Django is also more developed.
This is more of a personal thing, but I just like Python over PHP. Compare the way models are done in CakePHP and Django: http://book.cakephp.org/view/67/Understanding-Models, http://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/topics/db/models/#topics-db-models. The python is clearly more readable.
Keep in mind that Django gives you an awesome ORM and builds your schema for you, i.e. you never have to touch the database if you don't want to. With the PHP frameworks, you have to do your own db design, which just slows me down at this point. You can always go in and add indexes for speed later.
This is probably the most biased, but if you are starting a new application - seriously - just stick with Django or Ruby on Rails. There is a reason everyone talks about them and they have the biggest communities and best developers behind them.
You can also check out Pinax for a lot of Django goodies.
Codeigniter it's fast and very documented also has a large community to and finaly friendly with the programmer.
CodeIgniter is a great PHP framework that is fast and has excellent documentation. Start reading through their user guide and it will give you a good idea how to work with the framework.
Extending Matchu:
Or, -If you like PHP more- its time to learn/growup about other things like Python. Its not hard to learn, and when you get started it gets very enjoyable.
Many people has done the PHPtoPython/Django port, like Mozilla, Netgeo, Nasa, TheOnion, etc.
If for the PHP part I would choose CodeIgniter - it doesn't get too much into your way. But it doesn't have any code/view/model generators out of the box, you need to type a bit.
But languages other than PHP appear to be more sexy.
I am using CodeIgniter 1.7.2 and for complex websites it's very good and powerfull, but it definitely is missing some kind of code generator which will allow for example to build an IT application in one click.
I had the impression (from watching a tutorial) that Django has it.
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I am making a community for web-comic artist who will be able to sync their existing website to this site.
However, I am in debate for what CMS I should use: Drupal or Wordpress.
I have heard great things about Drupal, where it is really aimed for Social Networking. I actually got to play a little bit in the back end of Drupal and it seemed quite complicated to me, but I am not going to give up to fully understand how Drupal works.
As for Wordpress, I am very familiar with the Framework. I have the ability to extend it to do what I want, but I am hesitating because I think the framework is not built for communities (I think it may slow down in the future).
I also have a unrelated question as well: Should I go with a Python CMS?
I heard very great things about Python and how much better it is compare to PHP.
Your advice is appreciated.
Difficult decision. Normally I would say 'definitely Drupal' without hesitation, as Drupal was build as a System for community sites from the beginning, whereas Wordpress still shows its heritage as a blogging solution, at least that's what I hear quite often. But then I'm working with Drupal all the time recently and haven't had a closer look at Wordpress for quite a while.
That said, Drupal has grown into a pretty complex system over the years, so there is quite a learning curve for newcomers. Given that you are already familiar with Wordpress, it might be more efficient for you to go with that, provided it can do all that you need.
So I would recommend Drupal, but you should probably get some opinions from people experienced with Wordpress concerning the possibility to turn it into a community site first.
As for the Python vs. PHP CMS question, I'd say that the quality of a CMS is a function of the ability of its developers, the maturity of the system, the surrounding 'ecosystem', etc. and not of the particular language used to build it. (And discussions about the quality of one established language vs. another? Well - let's just not go there ;)
I make websites both using Drupal and Django - sometimes with Pinax (Python). So let me try to set up the differences between Python and PHP, and the different CMS's.
Python - PHP
Pros for Python.
You tend to write more readable code making it easier to maintain. This has a big impact if you are going to do a lot of custom coding, now or in the future. However if you aren't going to make that much custom functionality, this doesn't matters.
Python and Django is buildt on OO, making it easy to reuse code, and is built on the DRY princip.
I find, that python is more intuitive to program in. In many cases it has a less weird / obscure syntax than PHP.
Cons for Python.
PHP is easier to host. More providers will allow you to run PHP and you can generally find PHP hosters a bit more cheaper than python hosters. If you have your own server, this wont matter.
Generally it's easier to code with python in many regards, but this is something that can be overcome simply by using more time with PHP. Also if you don't know python, that means you will have to invest some time learning it, and the things you can do with python. On the other hand it's a bit more difficult to find cheap hosting for Python projects.
Django/Pinax vs Drupal vs Wordpress.
It's always difficult to be able to say, which CMS?CMF to use. Which to choose is dependent on several factors.
How much custom coding are you going to do?
How much customization do you need?
How fine grained control over the system do you want?
Wordpress' strength is it's ease of use, and how you quickly and easily can setup a lot of things. You might be able to get a site like what you want with only a few hours spent. The problem with wordpress however, is when you want to make custom functionality. It doesn't have a strong API like Drupal, and you might have problems changing the output to give you exactly what you want.
Drupal's great strength is it's powerfull API, ability to customize and overwrite anything. In addition to all this, it also has a lot of modules giving you the ability to in many cases build your most/all of your site in a very short time. The problem with Drupal is, that it's not easy to use. You have to spend time learning the system and API before you can take advantage of it. the Drupal AI is also hard to navigate for newcomers, and it takes a while before you learn where the different things are. Drupal is a big machine though, and it can get a bit slow, unless you setup something like Varnish in front of it.
Django is made for rapid development. So once you get into it, which isn't that hard, you can quickly create apps to suite your needs. You have complete control over the urls. The problem with django is that it's not so easy to find the different apps that has been made and figure out which are good. The template system makes it easy to make the markup like you want, but you can't change the functionality of the apps the same way you can with Drupal. One thing to note, is that Pinax doesn't have a 1.0 release yet, while Drupal is on code freeze for it's 7.0 release.
All in all, with all these tools, the biggest challenge is finding out how to use them. If you know wordpress very well and just want to make this one site, you can just use it and be done with it. If however you want to take it further, I would suggest that you use either Django or Drupal. These two has some great development potential.
If you're open to Python, and are building a social / community site, I would check out Pinax for the Django web framework. It provides a lot of common social site features like user accounts, blogging, tagging, friend invites, etc.
Here's an example of a social site built using Pinax.
There's a WordPress extension called BuddyPress that'll give you a ready-to-go social network. If it suits you, it may be an easier solution than a Drupal install. If it doesn't suit you, though, I find Drupal more suited to extending in the long run.
I'd do it Drupal as it's a proven social networking platform and has te ability to be upgraded to do just about anything, from the vast range of modules on offer (read up on cck and views- they basically let you add your own customised page type (cck) and views lets you show data in various different ways, and based on various other parameters.)
I run my own mini social network site in Drupal - Tunstall Communities - Bankeyfields,
Heres a social network/news site using Wordpress, which they've now opted to upgrade to Drupal, as they want more social networking features.
DrupalSN is a social network site designed for showing you how to build Drupal sites, and a lot of the Tutorials on there are focussed on user interaction, so it will be a great resource if you go with Drupal.
I've pretty much tried every Python web framework that exists, and it took me a long time to realize there wasn't a silver bullet framework, each had its own advantages and disadvantages. I started out with Snakelets and heartily enjoyed being able to control almost everything at a lower level without much fuss, but then I discovered TurboGears and I have been using it (1.x) ever since. Tools like Catwalk and the web console are invaluable to me.
But with TurboGears 2 coming out which brings WSGI support, and after reading up on the religious debates between the Django and WSGI camps, I'm really torn between "doing it the right way", e.g., learning WSGI, spending valuable time writing functionality that already exists in Django and other full-stack frameworks, as opposed to using Django or some high-level framework that does everything for me. The downsides with the latter that I can see are pretty obvious:
I'm not learning anything in the process
If I ever need to do anything lower level it's going to be a pain
The overhead required for just a basic site which uses authentication is insane. (IMO)
So, I guess my question is, which is the better choice, or is it just a matter of opinion, and should I suck it up and use Django if it achieves what I want with minimal fuss (I want authentication and a CRUD interface to my database)? I tried Werkzeug, Glashammer, and friends, but AuthKit and Repoze scared me off, as well as the number of steps involved to just setup basic authentication. I looked at Pylons, but the documentation seems lacking, and when referencing simple features like authentication or a CRUD interface, various wiki pages and documentation seemed to contradict each other, with different hacks for versions and such.
Thanks to S. Lott for pointing out that I wasn't clear enough. My question is: which of the following is worthwhile in the long run, but not painful in the short (e.g., some sort of middle ground, anyone?) - Learn WSGI, or stick with a "batteries-included" framework? If the latter, I would appreciate a suggestion as to whether I should give Django another try, stick with TurboGears 1.x, or venture into some other framework.
Also, I have tried CherryPy, but couldn't seem to find a good enough CRUD application that I could plop in and use right away.
the religious debates between the Django and WSGI camps
It would seem as though you're a tad bit confused about what WSGI is and what Django is. Saying that Django and WSGI are competing is a bit like saying that C and SQL are competing: you're comparing apples and oranges.
Django is a framework, WSGI is a protocol (which is supported by Django) for how the server interacts with the framework. Most importantly, learning to use WSGI directly is a bit like learning assembly. It's a great learning experience, but it's not really something you should do for production code (nor was it intended to be).
At any rate, my advice is to figure it out for yourself. Most frameworks have a "make a wiki/blog/poll in an hour" type exercise. Spend a little time with each one and figure out which one you like best. After all, how can you decide between different frameworks if you're not willing to try them out?
I'd say you're being a bit too pessimistic about "not learning anything" using Django or a similar full-stack framework, and underestimating the value of documentation and a large community. Even with Django there's still a considerable learning curve; and if it doesn't do everything you want, it's not like the framework code is impenetrable.
Some personal experience: I spent years, on and off, messing around with Twisted/Nevow, TurboGears and a few other Python web frameworks. I never finished anything because the framework code was perpetually unfinished and being rewritten underneath me, the documentation was often nonexistent or wrong and the only viable support was via IRC (where I often got great advice, but felt like I was imposing if I asked too many questions).
By comparison, in the past couple of years I've knocked off a few sites with Django. Unlike my previous experience, they're actually deployed and running. The Django development process may be slow and careful, but it results in much less bitrot and deprecation, and documentation that is actually helpful.
HTTP authentication support for Django finally went in a few weeks ago, if that's what you're referring to in #3.
I suggest taking another look at TG2. I think people have failed to notice some of the strides that have been made since the last version. Aside from the growing WSGI stack of utilities available there are quite a few TG2-specific items to consider. Here are a couple of highlights:
TurboGears Administration System - This CRUD interface to your database is fully customizable using a declarative config class. It is also integrated with Dojo to give you infinitely scrollable tables. Server side validation is also automated. The admin interface uses RESTful urls and HTTP verbs which means it would be easy to connect to programatically using industry standards.
CrudRestController/RestController - TurboGears provides a structured way to handle services in your controller. Providing you the ability to use standardized HTTP verbs simply by extending our RestController. Combine Sprox with CrudRestController, and you can put crud anywhere in your application with fully-customizable autogenerated forms.
TurboGears now supports mime-types as file extensions in the url, so you can have your controller render .json and .xml with the same interface it uses to render html (returning a dictionary from a controller)
If you click the links you will see that we have a new set of documentation built with sphinx which is more extensive than the docs of the past.
With the best web server, ORM, and template system(s) (pick your own) under the hood, it's easy to see why TG makes sense for people who want to get going quickly, and still have scalability as their site grows.
TurboGears is often seen as trying to hit a moving target, but we are consistent about releases, which means you won't have to worry about working out of the trunk to get the latest features you need. Coming to the future: more TurboGears extensions that will allow your application to grow functionality with the ease of paster commands.
Your question seems to be "is it worth learning WSGI and doing everything yourself," or using a "full stack framework that does everything for you."
I'd say that's a false dichotomy and there's an obvious third way. TurboGears 2 tries to provide a smooth path from a "do everything for you" style framework up to an understanding of WSGI middleware, and an ability to customize almost every aspect of the framework to suit your application's needs.
We may not be successful in every place at every level, but particularly if you've already got some TurboGears 1 experience I think the TG2 learning curve will be very, very easy at first and you'll have the ability to go deeper exactly when you need it.
To address your particular issues:
We provide an authorization system out of the box that matches the one you're used to from TG1.
We provide an out of the box "django admin" like interface called the tgext.admin, which works great with dojo to make a fancy spreadsheet like interface the default.
I'd also like to address a couple of the other options that are out there and talk a little bit about the benifits.
CherryPy. I think CherryPy is a great webserver and a nice minimalistic web-framework. It's not based on WSGI internally but has good WSGI support although it will not provide you with the "full stack" experience. But for custom setups that need to be both fast and aren't particularly suited to the defaults provided by Django or TurboGears, it's a great solution.
Django. I think Django is a very nice, tigtly integrated system for developing websites. If your application and style of working fits well within it's standard setup it can be fantastic. If however you need to tune your DB usage, replace the template language, use a different user authorization model or otherwise do things differently you may very likely find yourself fighting the framework.
Pylons Pylons like CherryPy is a great minimalistic web-framework. Unlike CherryPy it's WSGI enabled through the whole system and provides some sane defaults like SQLAlchemy and Mako that can help you scale well. The new official docs are of much better quality than the old wiki docs which are what you seem to have looked at.
Have you taken a look at CherryPy. It is minimalistic, yet efficient and simple. It is low level enough for not it to get in they way, but high enough to hide complexity. If I remember well, TurboGears was built on it.
With CherryPy, you have the choice of much everything. (Template framework, ORM if wanted, back-end, etc.)
Learn WSGI
WSGI is absurdly simple.. It's basically a function that looks like..
def application(environ, start_response) pass
The function is called when an HTTP request is received. environ contains various data (like the request URI etc etc), start_response is a callable function, used to set headers.
The returned value is the body of the website.
def application(environ, start_response):
start_response("200 OK", [])
return "..."
That's all there is to it, really.. It's not a framework, but more a protocol for web-frameworks to use..
For creating sites, using WSGI is not the "right way" - using existing frameworks is.. but, if you are writing a Python web-framework then using WSGI is absolutely the right way..
Which framework you use (CherryPy, Django, TurboGears etc) is basically personal preference.. Play around in each, see which you like the most, then use it.. There is a StackOverflow question (with a great answer) about this, "Recommendation for straight-forward python frameworks"
Have you checked out web2py? After recently evaluating many Python web frameworks recently I've decided to adopt this one. Also check out Google App Engine if you haven't already.
I'd say the correct answer depends on what you actually want and need, as what will be worthwhile in the long run depends on what you'll need in the long run. If your goal is to get applications deployed ASAP then the 'simpler' route, ie. Django, is surely the way to go. The value of a well-tested and well-documented system that exactly what you want can't be underestimated.
On the other hand if you have time to learn a variety of new things which may apply in other domains and want to have the widest scope for customisation then something like Turbogears is superior. Turbogears gives you maximum flexibility but you will have to spend a lot of time reading external docs for things like Repoze, SQLAlchemy, and Genshi to get anything useful done with it. The TG2 docs are deliberately less detailed than the TG1 docs in some cases because it's considered that the external docs are better than they used to be. Whether this sort of thing is an obstacle or an investment depends on your own requirements.
Django is definitely worth learning, and sounds like it will fit your purposes. The admin interface it comes with is easy to get up and running, and it does use authentication.
As for "anything lower level", if you mean sql, it is entirely possible to shove sql into you queries with the extra keyword. Stylistically, you always try to avoid that as much as possible.
As for "not learning anything"...the real question is whether your preference is to be primarily learning something lower-level or higher-level, which is hardly a question anyone here can answer for you.
Pylons seems a great tool for me:
a real web framework (CherryPy is just a web server),
small code base - reuse of other projects,
written entirely with WSGI in mind, based on Paste,
allows you to code the app right away and touch the low level bits if it's necessary,
I've used CherryPy and TurboGears and look at many other frameworks but none of them were so light and productive as Pylons is. Check the presentation at Google.
I'm a TurboGears fan, and this is exactly the reason why: a very nice trade-off between control and doing things right vs. easy.
You'll have to make up your own mind of course. Maybe you'd prefer to learn less, maybe more. Maybe the areas that I like knowledge/control (database for example), you couldn't care less about. And don't misunderstand. I'm not characterizing any frameworks as necessarily hard or wrong. It's just my subjective judgment.
Also I would recommend TurboGears 2 if at all possible. When it comes out, I think it will be much better than 1.0 in terms of what it has selected for defaults (genshi, pylons, SqlAlchemy)
I would suggest for TurboGears 2. They have done a fantastic job of integrating best of Python world.
WSGI: Assuming you are developing moderately complex projects/ business solutions in TG2 or some other framework say Grok. Even though these frameworks supports WSGI does that mean one who is using these frameworks have to learn WSGI? In most cases answer is No. I mean it's good have this knowledge no doubt.
WSGI knowledge is probably is more useful in cases like
you want to use some middleware or some other component which is not provided as part of the standard stack for eg. Authkit with TG or Grok without ZODB.
you are doing some integration.
CherryPy is good but think of handling your database commits/rollbacks at the end of transactions, exposing json, validations in such cases TG, Django like frameworks do it all for you.
Web2py is the secret sauce here. Don't miss checking it out.
Django is my favorite python web framework. I've tried out others like pylons, web2py, nevow and others.
But I've never looked into TurboGears with much enthusiasm.
Now with TG2 out of beta I may give it a try. I'd like to know what are some of the pros and cons compared to Django.
TG2 has several advantages that I think are important:
Multi-database support
sharding/data partitioning support
longstanding support for aggregates, multi-column primary keys
a transaction system that handles multi-database transactions for you
an admin system that works with all of the above
out of the box support for reusable template snipits
an easy method for creating reusable template tag-libraries
more flexibility in using non-standard components
There are more, but I think it's also important to know that Django has some advantages over TG2:
Larger, community, more active IRC channel
more re-usable app-components
a bit more developed documentation
All of this means that it's a bit easier to get started in Django than TG2, but I personally think the added power and flexibility that you get is worth it. But your needs may always be different.
TG2 takes Pylons and changes some defaults - object dispatching instead of Routes, and Genshi instead of Mako. They believe there's only one way to do it, so apps can rely on the same API for any TurboGears website.
Similarities
TG2 and Django both distinguish between websites and components, so you'll eventually see reusable building blocks for TurboGears, too.
Differences
Django uses its own handlers for HTTP, routing, templating, and persistence. Django also has stellar documentation and an established community.
TurboGears defaults to best-of-breed libraries, which apparently are Paste, object dispatching, Genshi, and SqlAlchemy. This philosophy produces a better all-round toolset, but at the risk of instability - because it means throwing away backwards compatibility if and when better libraries appear.
Pros.
SQLAlchemy > django ORM
Multiple template languages out of the box (genshi,mako,jinja2)
more WSGI friendly
Object Dispatch > routes > regexp routing. You can get the first 2 with TG2
Almost all components are optional you can keep the core and use any ORM, template, auth library, etc.
Sprox > django forms
Cons.
- Admin is more basic (no inline objects yet!)
- less third party apps
- "app" system still in the making.
- given it's modularity you need to read documentation from different sources (SQLAlchemy, Genshi or Mako, repoze.who, Pylons, etc.)
I was struggling with the same question months ago and decided for Turbogears 2, and my reasoning was simple. "I'm new to python, I want to learn it not just for web-projects but as a substitute to php for scripting small helpers"
What I didn't like about Django, to me looks like a "close platform". ORM, Template system, sessions, etc they all are Django's
On the other hand, Turbogears 2 uses already known open platforms and just glued them, just like Appfuse does it for Java
With TurboGears 2 I learn SQLAlchemy that I can use later for small python scripts, or from the python shell to solve common tasks.
Main drawbacks are the lack of complete documentation and error messages.
Sometimes you have to search very deep to find simple solutions, the learning curve is steep, but it pays long term. The error messages where to me very confusing (coming from more than 10 years in Java development). I had lost many hours trying to find an "ascii encode error" when the real problem was a module not being imported.
That's my opinion, just remember I'm new to python and I could be wrong about many things stated here.
Besides what Nikhil gave in his answer, I think another minor difference is that Turbogears provdes some support for javascript widgets and integration with Mochikit.
Whereas Django steadfastly remains javascript framework neutral.
(At least this was true with older versions of Turbogears... this might have changed with TG2)
Edit: I just went over TG2 documentation and see that it did indeed change. Turbogears now uses ToscaWidgets which can use jQuery, ExtJS, Dojo, etc. underneath. This nicely makes it more framework neutral while still providing nice javascript widgets.
This strikes me as a pro for Turbogears if you don't have any javascript experience and a pro for Django if you are writing a lot of specialized javascript.
One of the most important questions is not just what technical features this platform provides or that platform provides, but the driving philosophy of the open source project and the nature of the community supporting it.
I've got no dog in this fight myself, but I found Mark Ramm's talk at DjangoCon 2008 to be very interesting on this point (Google will yield no end of subsequent discussion, no doubt).
Because Django uses its own ORM it limits you to learn that ORM for that specific web framework. I think using an web framework with a more popular ORM (like SqlAlchemy which TG uses) increases your employability chances. Just my 2 cents ..
Last I checked, django has a very poor data implementation. And that's a huge weakness in my book. Django's orm doesn't allow me to use the power of the underlying database. For example I can't use compound primary keys, which are important to good db design. It also doesn't support more than a single database, which is not a big deal until you really need it and find that you can't do it without resorting to doing it manually. Lastly if you have to make changes to your database structure in a team-friendly way, you have to try to choose between a set of 3rd party migration tools.
Turbogears seems to be more architecturally sound, doing its best to integrate individual tools that are awesome in their own right. And because TG is more of an integrator, you're able to switch out pieces to suit your preferences. Don't like SQL Alchemy? You can use SQLObject. Don't like Genshi templates? You can use Mako or even django's, although you're not exactly stuck with the default on django either.
Time for tg2's cons:
TG has a much smaller community, and community usually has its benefit.
Django has a much better name. I really like that name ;-)
Django seems simpler for the beginning web developer, with pretty cool admin tools.
TG has decent documentation, but you also need to go to Genshi's site to learn Genshi, SQL Alchemy's site to learn that, etc. Django has great docs.
My 2 cents.
I know I'll get a thousand "Depends on what you're trying to do" answers, but seriously, there really is no solid information about this online yet. Here are my assumptions - I think they're similar for alot of people right now:
It is now October 2008. I want to start writing an application for January 2009. I am willing to use beta code and such but by January, I'd like a site that doesn't have 'strange' problems. With that said, if a language is simply 10% slower than another, I don't care about those things as long as the issue is linear. My main concern is developer productivity.
I'll be using Linux, Apache, MySQL for the application.
I want the power to do things like run scp and ftp client functions with stable libraries (I only picked those two because they're not web-related but at the same time represent pretty common network protocols that any larger app might use). Technologies like OpenID and Oauth will be used as well.
Experienced web developers are readily available (i.e. I don't have to find people from financial companies and such).
Whatever the choice is is common and will be around for a while.
Here's a kicker. I'd like to be able to use advanced presentation layer tools/languages similar to HAML, SASS. I definitively want to use JQuery.
I will be creating a Facebook app and at some point doing things like dealing with SMS messages, iPhone apps, etc...
At this point, the choices for language are PHP (Cake,Symfony,Zend), Python (Django), Ruby (Merb). I'm really between Django and Merb at this point mostly because everybody else seems to be going that way.
Please don't put any technologies in here that aren't made for mainstream. I know Merb is untested mostly, but their stated goal is a solid platform and it has alot of momentum behind it so I'm confident that it's workable. Please don't answer with how great Perl is or .Net.
For Future References - these choices were already made:
Debian (Lenny) - For converting CPU cycles into something useful. Trac
0.11 - For Project Management Gliffy - For wireframes and such
Google Docs/Apps - For documentation, hosted email, etc...
Amazon ec2/S3 - For hosting, storage.
Cheers,
Adam
Django!
Look up the DjangoCon talks on Google/Youtube - Especially "Reusable Apps" (www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-S0tqpPga4)
I've been using Django for some time, after starting with Ruby/Rails. I found the Django Community easier to get into (nicer), the language documented with excellent examples, and it's modularity is awesome, especially if you're wanting to throw custom components into the mix, and not be forced to use certain things here and there.
I'm sure there are probably ways to be just as flexible with Rails or some such, but I highly encourage you to take a long look at the Django introductions, etc, at http://www.djangoproject.com/
Eugene mentioned it's now at 1.0 - and therefore will remain a stable and backward-compatible codebase well through January 2009.
Also, the automatic admin interfaces it builds are production ready, and extremely flexible.
Sorry, but your question is wrong. People are probably going to vote me down for this one but I want to say it anyway:
I wouldn't expect to get an objective answer! Why? That's simple:
All Ruby advocates will tell to use Ruby.
All Python advocates will tell to use Python.
All PHP advocates will tell to use PHP.
Insert additional languages here.
Got the idea?
I recommend you to try each of the languages you mentioned for yourself. At least a few days each. Afterwards you should have a much better foundation to make your final decision.
That said, I would choose Ruby (because I am a Ruby advocate).
All of them will get the job done.
Use the one that you and your team are most familiar with
This will have a far greater impact on the delivery times and stability of your app than any of the other variables.
it depends.
php - symfony is a great framework. downsides: php, wordy and directory heavy. propel gets annoying to use. upsides: php is everywhere and labor is cheap. well done framework, and good support. lots of plugins to make your life easier
python - django is also a great framework. downsides: python programmers can be harder to find, django even harder. changing your db schema can be somewhat difficult since there are no official migrations. doesn't quite do mvc like you'd expect. upsides: does everything you need and has the great python std library and community behind it.
ruby - i've never used merb, so I'll address rails. upsides: there is a plugin, gem, or recipe for almost anything you could want to do. easy to use. downsides: those plugins, gems, and recipes sometimes fail to work in mysterious ways. monkey patching is often evil. the community is.. vocal. opinionated software, and sometimes those opinions are wrong (lack of foreign keys). rails itself seems like a tower of cards waiting to explode and take hours of your life away.
with all of that said, I'm a freelance php/symfony and ruby/rails developer. I've worked on several projects in both languages and frameworks. My latest project is in Rails solely because of ActiveMerchant. I've been looking for a reason to develop a django app for a while. If there were an ActiveMerchant like library for django, I probably would have used it.
I would go with Django, if you are comfortable with a Python solution. It's at version 1.0 now, and is maturing nicely, with a large user base and many contributors. Integrating jQuery is no problem, and I've done it without any issues.
The only thing is, as far as I can tell, Ruby is much more popular for web development nowadays, so it's easier to find Ruby developers. I get this impression from browsing recent job advertisements - there aren't that many for Python or Django. I don't know much about Merb, so I can't give a fair comparison.
I've done enough PHP to not recommend starting a new project with it.
Based in your reasons, I would go with Ruby. I see that you want some administration tools (scp, ftp client) and Ruby has it (net/sftp and net/ftp libraries).
Also, there are great gems like God for monitoring your system, Vlad the Deployer for deploying, etc. And a lot of alternatives in Merb's field, just use whatever you find it's better for your needs (Thin, Mongrel, ebb, etc).
To get a feeling of where the Django ecosystem is at currently, you might want to check out
djangopeople.net (try djangopeople.net/us/ny for New York state)
djangogigs.com
I have to preface this with my agreeing with Orion Edwards, choose the one your team is most familiar with.
However, I also have to note the curious lack of ASP.NET languages in your list. Not to provoke the great zealot army, but where's the beef? .NET is a stable, rapid development platform and the labor pool is growing daily. VB.NET and C# are transportable skill sets, and that can mean a lot when you're building a team of developers to work on a diverse set of tasks. .NET also allows you to separate your presentation layer from your backend code, like other languages, but also allows you to expose that backend code as web service for things like your iPhone and Facebook applications.
Take every suggestion with a grain of salt, and pick what suits the application best. Do your research, and design for function and not the zealots.
Disclaimer: Once a PHP, ColdFusion and Perl developer. Flex zealot, and Adobe lover. Now writing enterprise .NET applications. ;)
Don't forget Mono, which will let you run .NET under *nix. Not that I'm saying it will be perfect, just playing devil's advocate.
Don't get stuck in the mindset of server-side page layout. Consider technologies like SproutCore, GWT or ExtJS which put the layouting code fully on the client, making the server responsible only for data marshalling and processing (and easily replaced).
And you really, really need to know which server platform you want. Don't pick one because it's the flavor of the month, pick one because you're comfortable with it. Flavors don't last, a solidly built codebase will.
Having built apps in Django, I can attest to its utility. If only all frameworks were as elegant (yes Spring, I'm looking at you).
However in terms of betting the farm on Django, one thing you need to factor in is that Python 3 will be released shortly. Python 3 is not backwards compatible and there's a risk that it will fork the language and end up slowing momentum for all Python projects while they deal with the fallout. To be fair, Ruby 2.0 is due soon too, but I don't think it will be as disruptive.
My experience with various new technologies over the last ten years leads me to recommend that you make stability of the platform a serious criterion. It's all well and good developing with the latest and greatest framework, but when you find it's moved forward a point version and suddenly the way you have done everything is deprecated, that can turn out to result in extra unnecessary work. This was particularly my experience working with rails a little ahead of version 1. For that reason alone I would avoid any platform that wasn't at least at 1.0 when you start work on it.
Ruby is great to work with and will keep your developer productivity high, but if Django is the more stable platform I would favour that for sure.
It pays not to be biased about your server setup. Any modern web framework worth it's weight in source code has a SQL abstraction layer of some sort. PostgreSQL gets much better performance, and this is coming from a former MySQL partisan.
Apache is a beast, both to configure and on your server's resources. Why not go with something light-weight, like nginx or lighttpd?
(For the record, I'm a big Django user, but as the accepted answer said, go with whatever your team knows. Quick turn-arounds are not the time to be learning new frameworks. If you're hiring a team from scratch, go with Django.)
Update: I ended up using, and loving, Django. I'm totally done with PHP - sorry about that. Future readers trying to create a new web 2.0 site (assuming they have a programming background), should greatly consider this setup:
Amazon ec2 for hosting ($80/month - not cheap but worth it if you can afford it)
Django/Python (Python is the most powerful scripting language on the planet - and Django just makes it work on the web)
Development should be done with SQLlite and the development server that comes with Django. Don't waste time with Nginx, Apache, MySQL until you're withing a few weeks of a beta.
Oh, and I now develop on a Mac, which works great for local Django development.
Finally, Pinax is a great start for Django development.