I'm a hobbyist programmer (only in TI-Basic before now), and after much, much, much debating with myself, I've decided to learn Python. I don't have a ton of free time to teach myself a hundred languages and all programming I do will be for personal use or for distributing to people who need them, so I decided that I needed one good, strong language to be good at. My questions:
Is python powerful enough to handle most things that a typical programmer might do in his off-time? I have in mind things like complex stat generators based on user input for tabletop games, making small games, automate install processes, and build interactive websites, but probably a hundred things along those lines
Does python handle networking tasks fairly well?
Can python source be obfuscated, or is it going to be open-source by nature? The reason I ask this is because if I make something cool and distribute it, I don't want some idiot script kiddie to edit his own name in and say he wrote it
And how popular is python, compared to other languages. Ideally, my language would be good and useful with help found online without extreme difficulty, but not so common that every idiot with computer knows python. I like the idea of knowing a slightly obscure language.
Thanks a ton for any help you can provide.
Is python powerful enough to handle
most things?
Yes. Period. Study EveOnline game for more information. Look at pygame framework. Free free to use Google to find more.
Does python handle networking tasks
fairly well?
Yes. Look at the number of Python web frameworks plus the Twisted framework. Feel free to use Google to search for Python networking.
Can python source be obfuscated?
Not usefully. This isn't C.
And how popular is python, compared to
other languages?
Look at the TIOBE index.
I think that Python is very powerful to do a lot of things, but just like Java and C++, it often depends on good third-party libraries. I come from a Java background but use Python for a lot of things, and it's been a fun ride. I've done things like statistics, and automation, not sure about the UI though that often depends on the toolkit more than the language.
Python networking works well. I don't know if I'd use it to build a fast algorithmic trading system or a VOIP application, but for most intents and purposes, especially at higher levels of abstraction, it's fine and easy to use. You would need external libraries for things like SSH or FTP.
Python is quite popular and has very good online support, active community, and major corporations (likeGoogle) that use it. I found the official online tutorial and reference to be excellent.
I have to say that I disagree with the "every idiot with a computer" line. There's a difference between knowing a language and using it right, and that's true about every language, even natural ones :) Python does have a lot of functional elements that are not as trivial to use for people coming from a procedural background, so there's always room for growth.
The one problem with Python compared to languages like C and Java is that it is not statically typed. This makes it much faster to write code, but also makes it *much easier) to make mistakes that can be quite nasty to debug. For instance, the same variable can contain a String reference at some point, and a reference to a list of strings at some other point.
Absolutely.
What type of networking? It has socket, http, xml, smtp/pop, telnet, and much more built in.
Python obfuscation won't be nearly as good as a compiled language. Usually that isn't a problem.
It's the 9th most popular tag on stackoverflow, so there's plenty of help available.
Is python powerful enough to handle most things that a typical programmer might do in his off-time? I have in mind things like complex stat generators based on user input for tabletop games, making small games, automate install processes, and build interactive websites, but probably a hundred things along those lines
Definitely. Python is a good tool for all of those except automating install processes, where it might be the right tool but more likely the right tool will likely be decided by what specifically you are automating.
Does python handle networking tasks fairly well?
Yes. You will want to look into Twisted.
Can python source be obfuscated, or is it going to be open-source by nature? The reason I ask this is because if I make something cool and distribute it, I don't want some idiot script kiddie to edit his own name in and say he wrote it
"Open source" refers to the licensing of your code, not the viewability of its source code. Hiding Python source code isn't especially possible, and the results of decompiling Python bytecode will result in much more readable code than the equivalent tools in languages like C. Don't worry about this! You can't prevent people from stealing your car or your computer if they are willing to break the law, and you can't do the same for your code in any language.
And how popular is python, compared to other languages. Ideally, my language would be good and useful with help found online without extreme difficulty, but not so common that every idiot with computer knows python. I like the idea of knowing a slightly obscure language.
This is an unanswerable question. Google will give you lots of conflicting results with different metrics, most of them useful. You're also being a bit silly ;)
As far as learning materials go, I recommend How to Think Like a Computer Scientist, which is a good text that does not presume any existing programming knowledge. It is available for free online, or you could buy a print copy if you prefer. (Don't bother learning 3.x yet. There is not enough library support to do much useful stuff like you want to do, and when there is picking it up will be a breeze; it's not very different than 2.5/6/7.)
Probably yes. Maybe the stat crunching thing will be kinda slow, and maybe a game depending on what kind of game, but generally the performance is good enough, and you save a lot of time on the actual programming. If you REALLY need performance, you can make a module in C, but usually there is a library written to do what you want..
I haven't used it, but there's a framework called Twisted that seems to be pretty good.
No. Bytecode can be decompiled easily, and it only works on a specific version of Python, so your code isn't as portable.
Python is pretty popular, and the Python Package Index has a big list of third party libraries. It's not as widespread as, say, Java, but a lot of people use it and you can probably get answers for what you want.
Points 1 and 2: HELL YEAH.
Point 4: kind of. Python is good at some network stuff. It's not Java or C++. Just use zlib (zip library) and pickle (serialization) for everything, and look at xmlrpclib if you need IPC.
Point 3: No. However, you can write C modules (for the performance critical, and hard-to-copy) parts of your code, and that would make it non-trivial to reverse-engineer.
Python is up to the task (and better) for 1, 2 and 4.
The best solution for 3 from what you describe would probably be to make your programs really open-source with GPL or BSD like licence. This way people will edit your super-cool sources (but often experienced programmers, not just script kiddies) and build on then but leave your name in for posterity.
Related
I heard that Python is easy and powerful, but I don't know if I'm on the right track to learn it. I learn from online tutorials, I know basic maths calculation and printing strings, but how long will it take to develop something useful? I don't really know the exact uses of Python, though.
I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for, but I think one or more of the following may be the next step you're looking for.
Perhaps you would like to use a variety of different protocols for a networking program, you could check out Twisted.
Or perhaps if you would like to make a web application or blog you can check out Django.
Or perhaps you would like to make a GUI application, you could take a look at TkInter.
Or perhaps you would like to get into game programming, you could take a look at Pygame.
Or perhaps you would like to ... you can take a look at the Python Package Index.
How long will it take? This depends on your programming background in general. The best way is simply to jump into the topic you're interested in and start on a mini project.
Python is a general purpose language. You can use it to make a lot of different things, but it's best suited at stuff that doesn't require a lot of speed, since the high level features have a performance cost.
It's hard to tell how long it will take you to develop something useful. The other day I made a script to help on a small computer administration thing. You could do that with a week or two of experience (or maybe less), depending on your previous programming knowledge and the amount of time you put into studying. However, if you want to make something bigger (maybe an audio player, an IM client, mid-sized stuff like that), you probably need some weeks or months of practice. It depends a lot on the time and energy you invest in programming.
I'd suggest to follow either the official tutorial or Dive Into Python.
In general, it depends on you. Python can be used for simple or complex stuff, and for many different applications. It depends on what you want.
Have a look at Mark Pilgrim's freely available book called Dive Into Python. I think it's a better choice to start with than online tutorials. The best way to learn a language is to start to work on a project. As I read this book, I started to implement a simple image viewer. As I advanced with the book, I could refine the project progressively. Invent something that is interesting to you.
I also suggest you taking notes when you learn a programming language. When you learn something that can be useful later, make some notes with a simple example, e.g. how to read a text file line by line, convert int to str, convert str to int, basic list operations, etc. Later on you can use these building blocks in a larger project.
Like every other programming language In order to learn Python you need to write a program with it.
Find a pet project and use python to code it. I also recommend Dive into python" (like anyone else that answered your question).
A few months ago I've decided to learn IronPython (.NET implementation of python), I'vve started by reading "Dive into python" and a few tutorials and then I've started coding a simple board game using IronPython (you can read about it in my blog).
In order to learn a new programming language you need to use it and then you'll know how and where to use it.
The best way to learn how to do something useful is come up with something useful you want to do. Make sure it's not way out of your league, then do research to accomplish it. That's how a lot of programmers learn languages.
What other programming background do you have? What programming interests do you have -- web apps, numerical / scientific computations, games, ...? Python is good at many different things, for both beginners and experienced programmers, but the most fruitful approach(es) to it do depend on what you already know, and what really interests you!-)
Bram who invented bittorrent with python says python is good for writing protocols in addition to aforementioned webapps, games and general purpose. Compared to Java python solves same problem in less code and less ways in longer development and VM time where Java has more ways solve same problem in more code and faster VM and faster development time.
Making a comparison between Python, and other languages would not help, as there is always somebody who would find a reason to prefer one language instead of another.
If you want a scripting language that is powerful, but that it is easier to read than perl, that doesn't have a curly bracket syntax, and that allows you to learn something about object oriented programming, then Python is the language for you.
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I'm a newbie to programming. I had 1 semester of computer science (we used java). I got an A in the course and was able to do everything assigned, however I'm not sure I really understood it. I ignored the text and learned by looking at sample programs and then trial and error. I was ahead of the class except for two guys who came in knowing java or another OOP language.
I'd like to learn Python. I'm also going to build a second PC from extra parts I have and use linux. Basically, I want to enhance my knowledge of computers. Thats my motivation.
Now on learning python are there any good programming theory books that would be useful? Or should I read up on more on how computers operate on the lowest levels? I don't think I know enough to ask the question I want.
I guess to make it simple, I am asking what should I know to make the most of learning python. This is not for a career. This is from a desire to know. I am no longer a computer science major (it also would not have any direct applications to my anticipated career.)
I'm not looking to learn in "30 days" or "1 week" or whatever. So, starting from a very basic level is fine with me.
Thanks in advance. I did a search and didn't quite find what I was looking for.
UPDATE: Thanks for all the great advice. I found this site at work and couldn't find it on my home computer, so I am just getting to read now.
My recommendation is always to start at the high level of abstraction. You don't need to know how logic gates work and how you can use them to build a CPU -- it's cool stuff, but it's cool stuff that makes a lot more sense once you've messed around at the higher levels. Python is therefore an excellent choice as a learning aid.
How to Think Like A Computer Scientist: Learning With Python is available on the Internet and is an excellent introduction to the high-level concepts that make computers go. And it's even Python-specific.
If you're looking to have your brain turned inside-out, SICP will do a good job of it. I don't recommend it as a first text, though; it's heavy going.
Both of these books are high-level. They won't teach you anything about the low-level details like memory structures or what a CPU actually does, but that's something I would reserve for later anyway.
D'A
Specifically for the Python part of your question I can highly recommend http://www.diveintopython3.net/ by Mark Pilgrim. That's free and pretty well structured.
Python is a nice choice, you will have fun!
http://www.pythonchallenge.com/
I think this Challenge is perfect to get in touch with major python strengths and there is a nice forum with a lot of interessting Python Threads for each Level.
A lot of this depends on what your overall goal is for learning Python. Are you viewing it as learning a second language or getting a better understanding of computers and how to effectively use a programming language?
From what it sounds like you want to gain a better understanding about computers and be a better programmer. Learning a new languages such as Python will probably not help you in this respect. I still recommend learning Python if you're interested, but once you have learned one programming language, much of learning a new language is getting familiar with the syntax and data types (usually).
You had mentioned you were unsure about understanding the material in the class you took. If you feel you don't understand fundamental concepts (such as loops, classes, etc), then learning Python will help your understanding of programming as most books/guides revisit these concepts (Learning Python, 3rd Edition should help with this). If you understand these concepts, but you are unsure of how to apply these concepts, then my recommendation would be to learn about data structures and common algorithms (e.g. sorting, searching, etc).
Speaking from personal experience, I didn't know how to apply what I learned from the introductory programming class to personal programming projects. Learning about data structures from a class helped solidify those concepts I had previously learned by providing algorithms/data structures that build off of this previous knowledge. This class also allowed me to think differently about problems in terms of using these data structures.
To learn about the different types of data structures, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_data_structures. Usually, each data structure is useful for a specific purpose (e.g. binary search trees are good for searching sorted information). Unfortunately, I don't have any book recommendations (our class didn't use a book). Googling "Data Structures" should be a good starting point.
Data structures also got me to think about how efficient an implementation is. The "complexity" of an algorithm determines how long a given piece of code takes to run. This makes it easy to compare other implementations and determine which is better.
I would also like to comment that when it comes to learning computer concepts, the best way to learn is by doing. A book/class can only explain so much, and the rest you have to learn on your own. Each person learns differently, and programming is a way of taking the material you read about and think about it in a way that is best understood by you.
I hope I answered your question. At this point, you don't really need to worry about the underlying hardware. This is useful to know if you plan on doing this as a career (which you aren't), or want to make optimizations specific to the hardware you're running on (in which case, you wouldn't want to use Python). Python is a good choice to learn about data structures as it implements a lot of them for you, but it's important to know what they are used for.
If you are still in school, take a data structures class and see what you think of it. If you like it, I'd advise reconsidering the role of programming/CS in your career. You don't have to major in it, but consider a minor or at least a position that makes use of these skills you are learning. I say this because despite this not being your major, you are interested in understanding how a computer works and taking initiatives such as learning Python, building your own computer, and installing Linux.
If you have any further questions, feel free to ask. Good luck!
Python is a high-level language, so it wouldn't give you much direct benefit to learn how computers operate at the lowest levels.
Don't get me wrong - I do strongly believe that the low-level operation of a computer, e.g. assembly language and hardware, is something that every good programmer should be familiar with, because it does help you program more effectively in whatever language you are using, high-level or low-level. But it won't make much of a difference in your Python coding until you've gotten quite a bit of experience. If you're just starting out with Python, I would suggest staying away from the low-level operation of computers and concentrating on the basics of Python for now. Once you're comfortable with that, you can move on to something like C and then it might be appropriate to start looking at some lower-level stuff.
As for what you should know... not much, I guess. Python is a great language to start out programming in. It keeps simple things simple but it's rich enough to let you work your way up to a high level of complexity. I'd suggest probably looking at a tutorial; the one I happen to know is on the Python website, but I'm not claiming it's necessarily the best one for you. A Google search should give you plenty to get started with.
I started Python (as my first programming language) few months ago. I would recommend Learning Python, by Mark Lutz to begin with. But keep in mind that the key to learn well is to be open-minded, patient and willing to work and look up for things you don't understand.
Have fun!
I would suggest looking at the online book at http://www.diveintopython.org/ to learn python.
As for python projects, I would try learning the Django Framework. It is a framework for building web applications. They have a great tutorial for getting started with it. This would also give you experience building a webserver on a Linux box.
enhance my knowledge of computers
Well, what do you exactly mean by that? Python, or any other high level language, are designed to actually hide all the nasty details. That's one of the reasons, why it's apt for non-pros like (e.g. scientist).
If you want to know how stuff actually work, you should learn pure C. But then again, if you're not planning to have any career related to SC, there's not much point to it. Learn some more advanced algorithms and data structures instead. That'll result you more interesting, useful and is platform- and language-agnostic.
Short answer: all of them
Long answer:
Learning your first language is always a challenge, and after your Java experience, a lot of other languages will seem a lot simpler. That said, the real challenge in learning programming languages is learning when to use a particular language -- you can find decent docs for whatever you choose when the time comes.
As a concrete start, hop over to wikipedia and browse their categorical list of programming languages, click on all of the names you've ever heard (and anything else that catches your eye) and if the article has a code example, give it a minute or two to sink in (the rest of the article will help, of course). The point here is not to master every single language (which is (1) pointless and (2) impossible), but to get a handle on what is out there. For any language, there is a handful of other languages like it, and if you can at least read one language in most of those categories, you will have mastered a fairly large chunk of the programming universe. When a new project comes up, and something about it reminds you of some language you found, you can just learn that language as part of doing the project. It may sound like a lot of work, but after, say, your fifth big language, you completely lose count and just accidentally learn new ones all the time without noticing.
When you stop relating to one language as your home-language, you'll be able to learn from examples in other languages even if you've never programmed in them. Personally, I've only written a few Haskell programs, but being able to read Haskell has exposed me to a lot of ideas that I could recycle in more practical Scala and Python programs (oh yeah, after you learn Python, give Scala a browse and you'll probably never use Java again)
Even finding the best language for the job isn't the whole story. Having a lot of tools in your toolbox lets you throw together amazing stuff in short amounts of time by writing each piece of your project in the easiest language your could. This may not be appropriate for all projects, but, boy, can you make some impressive demos.
It takes many years to get to the point where no programming language is totally foreign (or at least foreign for more than a day of hacking), but I think it is a very healthy and realistic long-term plan to attempt to conquer a representative sample of each rough category. Good luck!
Since Python wasn't my first language, I found the Python Cookbook helpful for learning
What Python was capable of
The idiomatic, of "pythonic," way to do something.
Programming language teaching has always been associated with a cliche statement while learning. "Write programs to learn programming". I too would suggest the same.
If you are going to start from basics. This is of course, the most suggested starting point. It is lengthy, but it is worth all the time. http://www.diveintopython.org/
Because you are into some Java, this might be even better for you. http://www.swaroopch.com/notes/Python. Start either python 2.x or 3.0. Me personally am a fan of python 3. But for a starter it could be hard to get samples, and references to programs online. So for you 2.x might be better. But I leave it upto you.
Like I started "Write programs..". You can start here.
http://www.spoj.pl/ - a programming challenges site, where you can choose from a wide variety of topics, mostly algorithms and has huge question database. Of course the choice of programming languages is upto you.
http://projecteuler.net/ - a mathematical questions site, here you just have to submit an answer, cheating is allowed here, so be free to borrow logic from others, but try writing the program yourself.
After you think you have gained sufficient proficiency in python, you can try recipes in this book python cookbook http://www.amazon.com/Python-Cookbook-Alex-Martelli/dp/0596007973.
For application development, after you think you can handle it, start on wxPython or PyQt. I personally would suggest PyQt. It is responsive, fast, and has decent development cycle, I have not used WxPython for long, but few programs I wrote, long back, didn't feel so great. Yet again, its upto you.
Which of the following technology is easy to learn and fun for developing a website? If you could only pick one which would it be and why
Clojure/Compojure+Ring/Moustache+Ring
Groovy/Grails
Python/Django
Ruby/Rails
Turbogear
Cappuccino or Sproutcore
Javascript/jQuery
Have you considered turning off the computer and going outside instead?
Remember to wear pants!
Have you tried ASP.NET MVC? It is actually very different to ASP.NET (vanilla), but retains your knowledge of the .NET framework. Most people wouldn't look back...
With the view based on your html (rather than whatever the controls decide to emit), it is also ideally placed to work alongside jQuery (it is even installed in the default project template) for all your dhtml/ajax needs.
Resources:
ASP.NET MVC in Action
jQuery in Action
OK, first, apparently we all need a pants check. Done?
I'm of two minds:
if you are looking for a practical language / platform to pick up that you hope to use to help you in your day-to-day then I'd go with Python/Django. Python has developed into a really sweat and powerful language and Django is as nice a web development MVC as any other and pretty easy to pick up and get going with. You can run it locally, its easy to deploy on Apache w/ mod_python. Did I mention that Python is a really nice language? Also good support in the tools world, google app engine etc....
if you are looking to expand your thinking/though processes about the way you program and think about programming then I'm with Joel Spolsky - choose HAppS (Joel would go Haslkell) or Clojure which I've not used but I've done a lot of lisp and it makes you think different and the language constructs like the macro capability will change the way you think of solving problems
I would probably learn Ruby on Rails. It has a lot of different methodologies compared to ASP.NET, and it might open your eyes to some different and very powerful approaches to web apps.
Let's start by clarifying your question. Why are you "tired of ASP.NET?" Is it because of the tedious webforms model that tries so hard to protect you from the browser/server conversation that it ends up getting in the way?
Or is it because you have been trying to work with one of the tiresome 3rd party enhancement controls that build on the tedium of the webforms model?
Or do are you simply tired of working with five different languages at once: ASP.NET, HTML, CSS, Javascript, and C#/VB?
If you answered yes to the first two of these questions here's some advice:
Get some rest.
Try ASP.NET MVC. It gets out of your way and lets you work with the browser and IIS
Realize that changing web development models will be difficult no matter which one you choose to move to. The path is smoother the fewer things you change (see number 2).
If you answered yes only to the 3rd question (five different languages) then all I can tell you is, welcome to web development. It will be this way for awhile.
I recommend Clojure and Compojure because Clojure is awesome. Clojure is a new and modern LISP implemented on the JVM and can interact seamlessly with any Java library. It already has 3 IDE plugins in development, a book written about it, a very smart and open-minded person running the whole operation and a great newbie friendly community. The language is simple, easy to learn and yet really powerful. A good way to open your mind to new ideas without going as far as pure functional programming. Coding websites with Clojure is a breeze and really fun. It has a lot going for it and a lot of momentum. All the kool kids are doin' it so I recommend giving it a try!
Javascript, because the skills you learn will complement your current Asp.net skills.
If you main goal is to broaden yourself, I'd suggest looking at things like Seaside or HAppS.
I would suggest jQuery or python, both are fun to work with and useful for either web work or just common tasks.
You should wait until you get an answer from someone who's used more than one of those. That said (I've only used rails, python, and javascript), one way to frame it would be as a balance between sheer intellectual joy and practicality. My thoughts on Rails and Python from that perspective:
Rails is going to be different and interesting, and it was hip in 2005-2007. There may be something more hip now. (Hip counts when you want to get future colleagues excited about what you've done, when they haven't done it.) I'd venture that it's at least as eye-opening as something based on LISP or Smalltalk or Haskell, but probably more practical because you may actually end up using it at a job or for contract work. Clojure, Seaside, and HAppS sound really cool, but until one of them really catches on, you're unlikely to ever use any of that stuff again in your career unless you're a computer science PhD working with other PhD's. (Edit in response to comments: please don't read this as a disparagement of those frameworks. As Rayne and MarkusQ have noted, depending on your motivations, they may be just what you're looking for. I'm just trying to communicate one method for weighing the alternatives based on your goals.)
Python is a great language to know all around. I haven't used Django, but it has some industry traction (not as much as rails). Python as a language though will serve you well no matter what you do -- it's great for banging out utility scripts and rapidly prototyping ideas. There's a huge community and tons of libraries.
You can gauge a technology's potential usefulness for moneymaking by searching for it on craigslist, dice.com, monster.com, etc.
Definitely clojure. It is the most different of all languages mentioned in the list, so it would be probably most fun to learn / use.
Nobody seems to be voting for groovy. I'd go for that. I don't know anything about grails, but groovy the language is pretty cool. In the past nine months at my job I've been required to learn python and ruby. In the process I also took some time to understand groovy. groovy is the language that had me hooked before I finished reading the first chapter of Groovy in Action.
Ruby is the one I'm actively using now, and while I did nothing but python for six months that's my least favorite of the bunch. Python is not a bad language per se, I just didn't enjoy using it. I find ruby to be a very pleasant language and am glad I had the opportunity to learn it.
Fully learning javascript might be the more practical choice, but I'd still vote for Groovy. I'm anxious to find an opportunity to use it at work.
Ruby on Rails, because that's what I use.
I have worked with several technologies... not touched ASP. NET. Heard about it from other people who are under its influence.
I have started working with Ruby on Rails and it is fun. Since you want to learn and develop web sites, you should go for Ruby on Rails. There are lot of things you can do with RoR on web. I like things that you can do with RMagick. (cropping images, thumbnails,slideshow etc)
Talk about multi-lingual sites... and there you have "gettext".
I vote for RoR.
I'll add in my vote for Groovy, as well as another one for Ruby. Both Grails and Rails are excellent frameworks, although Rails will get you a job a lot sooner than Grails. Both are truly a pleasure to work with, and have actually made me enjoy coding again.
Groovy is nice because you can use any Java library. So, lightning-fast database access, XML parsing, PDF generation, and so on. In a nutshell, Groovy is Java, if Java had been written by a bunch of Ruby guys.
Grails is also great, although it's a lot buggier than Rails, and if you want to do anything complicated you're going to need to learn a bit about Spring, Hibernate, and Java. Grails does have better internationalization support and more deployment options, as well as a really good integrated scheduler (Quartz) for long-running and scheduled tasks.
Rails is Ruby all the way down, so you can very easily read the framework code and figure out how things worked -- I did this in order to figure out how to implement a graph (data structure), and was really pleased with how easy it was to figure out how to change things.
Learn Ruby on Rails. It'll change the way you see web development. It did for me!
A valid alternative is Django and Python. I don't use it, but I consider it to be just as good as Rails.
I've used Ruby on Rails but also have done quite a bit of Groovy and Grails work.
If you don't have any previous experience I would go with either of those.
They're both fun to learn, pretty easy, and are very powerful.
They're both backed up by frameworks:
Ruby had Rails/Merb
Groovy has Grails
They can both use jQuery.
I don't know much about Python/Django combination.
I've started to learn Ruby on Rails along with MVC (since conceptually there similar) and found it a great relief from the same routine with .Net.
I am a C++ developer, slowly getting into web development. I like LISP a lot but don't like AllegroCL and web-frameworks available for LISP. I am looking for more freedom and ability to do cool hacks on language level. I don't consider tabs as a crime against nature.
Which one is closer to LISP: Python or Ruby?
I can't seem to be able to choose from Python and Ruby: they seem very similar but apparently Ruby is more functional and object-oriented, which are good things, while Python is more like Perl: a simple scripting language. Do I have the right impression?
PS - This might seem like a flame bait but it's not really, I'm just trying not to go crazy from OCD about switching from RoR to Python/Django and back.
Peter Norvig, a famous and great lisper, converted to Python. He wrote the article Python for Lisp Programmers, which you might find interesting with its detailed comparison of features.
Python looks like executable pseudo-code. It's easy to pick up, and often using your intuition will just work. Python allows you to easily put your ideas into code.
Now, for web development, Python might seem like a more scattered option than Ruby, with the plethora of Python web frameworks available. Still, in general, Python is a very nice and useful language to know. As Ruby and Python's niches overlap, I agree with Kiv that it is partly a matter of personal taste which one you pick.
I'd go with Ruby. It's got all kinds of metaprogramming and duck punching hacks that make it really easy to extend. Features like blocks may not seem like much at first, but they make for some really clean syntax if you use them right. Open classes can be debugging hell if you screw them up, but if you're a responsible programmer, you can do things like 2.days.from_now (example from Rails) really easily (Python can do this too, I think, but with a bit more pain)
PS: Check out "Why Ruby is an acceptable LISP".
Devils Advocate: Who Cares?
They are both good systems and have an ecosystem of good web frameworks and active developer communities. I'm guessing that you're framing your decision based on the wrong criteria. The question sounds like you're fretting about whether you will hit implementation problems or other difficulties by choosing one over the other. Don't.
This is similar to Java/.Net decisions. There may be compelling reasons in a specific instance, but soft factors like the architect's familiarity with the platform are a much stronger predictor of project success.
I will admit that I've used Python much more than Ruby, but I wouldn't say that I have any great preference between the two apart from familiarity. I've used Python off and on since about 1998 and I like the Smalltalkish-ness of Ruby as I used Smalltalk briefly about 15 years ago. They both do similar things slightly differently.
I would like certain features from Ruby (or Smalltalk for that matter) but Python doesn't work that way. Instead, it has other features and language idioms are slightly different from Ruby or Smalltalk. Several of the other posters have linked out to articles that compare the two.
If you're worrying about Rails vs. Django, that suggests you're looking for a platform for web applications. Both languages have good tool support and an active developer community. Django seems to be the winner of the Python web framework melee and Rails seems to be in the process of 'crossing the chasm' and bringing Ruby along with it. Both are reasonably mature systems and have been demonstrated to work well for respectable traffic volumes.
ProTip: The presence of religious wars is a good indicator that neither side has a compelling arguement.
So, I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that worrying about the choice is pointless. The languages have advantages and disadvantages with respect to each other but nothing that could be viewed as compelling in the general case. Fretting about the detailed merits of one platform or the other is framing the decision wrongly.
Pick one and use it. You will be able to build systems effectively with either.
Speaking as a "Rubyist", I'd agree with Kiv. The two languages both grant a nice amount of leeway when it comes to programming paradigms, but are also have benefits/shortcomings. I think that the compromises you make either way are a lot about your own programming style and taste.
Personally, I think Ruby can read more like pseudo-code than Python. First, Python has active whitespace, which while elegant in the eyes of many, doesn't tend to enter the equation when writing pseudo-code. Also, Ruby's syntax is quite flexible. That flexibility causes a lot of quirks that can confuse, but also allows code that's quite expressive and pretty to look at.
Finally, I'd really say that Ruby feels more Perl-ish to me. That's partly because I'm far more comfortable with it, so I can hack out scripts rather quickly. A lot of Ruby's syntax was borrowed from Perl though, and I haven't seen much Python code that feels similar (though again, I have little experience with Python).
Depending on the approach to web programming you'd like to take, I think that the types of web frameworks available in each language could perhaps be a factor in deciding as well. I'd say try them both. You can get a working knowledge of each of them in an afternoon, and while you won't be writing awesome Ruby or Python, you can probably establish a feel for each, and decide which you like more.
Update: I think your question should actually be two separate discussions: one with Ruby, one with Python. The comparisons are less important because you start debating the merits of the differences, as opposed to which language will work better for you. If you have questions about Ruby, I'd be more than happy to answer as best I can.
Both Ruby and Python are fairly distant from the Lisp traditions of immutable data, programs as data, and macros. But Ruby is very nearly a clone of Smalltalk (and I hope will grow more like Smalltalk as the Perlish cruft is deprecated), and Smalltalk, like Lisp, is a language that takes one idea to extremes. Based on your desire to do cool hacks on the language level I'd go with Ruby, as it inherits a lot of the metaprogramming mindset from Smalltalk, and that mindset is connected to the Lisp tradition.
Alex Martelli gives a good analysis of the subject. It's a bit dated now, but I agree with the basic gist of it: Python and Ruby are two different ways of implementing the same thing. Sure there are some things you can do in Ruby that you can't do in Python. And sure Python's syntax is (arguably) better than Ruby's. But when you get down to it, there's not a whole lot of objective, scientific reason to prefer one over the other.
A common thing that you will hear is this: the platform is more important than the language and Python has a better platform than Ruby (this argument works both ways so don't vote me down, all you rubyists). And there is some truth to it. Unfortunately, it's not very relevant though. If you dislike the platform for either languages, there are implementations of both in Java and .Net, so you can use those if you have concerns about the platform.
I also recommend the article by Peter Norvig that namin posted. If you want to look at functional programming in Python check out the functools module in the standard library.
There is also a lot of room to hack around in Python; private variables are by convention and not enforced, so you can poke around in the internal state of objects if you feel like it. Usually this is not necessary, though.
Both Ruby and Python are very object-oriented and support functional programming; I wouldn't say either one is clearly superior for your project; it's partly a matter of personal taste.
I am a Pythonista; however, based on your requirements, especially the "cool hacks on the language level", I would suggest you work on Ruby. Ruby is more flexible in the Perl way and you can do a lot of hacks; Python is targeted towards readability, which is a very good thing, and generally language hacks are a little frowned upon. Ruby's basic types can be modified in a hackish way that typically prototype languages allow, while Python's basic types are more suited for subclassing.
By the way, I would add a minor correction: both Ruby and Python are very, very object-oriented, and neither is intended to be used for quick-and-dirty scripts the Perl way. Among the two, Ruby is syntactically more similar to Perl than Python.
If you need Unicode support, remember to check how well supported it is. AFAIK, Python's support for Unicode is better than Ruby's, especially since Python 3.0. On the other hand, Python 3 is still missing some popular packages and 3rd party libraries, so that might play against.
I'm a Rubyist who chose the language based on very similar criteria. Python is a good language and I enjoy working with it too, but I think Ruby is somewhat more Lispy in the degree of freedom it gives to the programmer. Python seems to impose its opinions a little bit more (which can be a good thing, but isn't according to our criteria here).
Python certainly isn't more Perlish— Ruby is essentially a Smalltalk/Perl mashup (some of its less-used features are pulled directly from Perl), whereas Python is only distantly related to either.
pick the most popular one for your domain so your work gets the most visibility. some might say ruby/rails for web, python for everything else. picking a language just because its like lisp is really not appropriate for a professional.
If you like lisp, I think you'll be better like ruby but c++ reminds me more of python. I've posted a small post about this subject : http://hartator.wordpress.com/2011/06/12/ruby-vs-python-2011/
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Right now I'm developing mostly in C/C++, but I wrote some small utilities in Python to automatize some tasks and I really love it as language (especially the productivity).
Except for the performances (a problem that could be sometimes solved thanks to the ease of interfacing Python with C modules), do you think it is proper for production use in the development of stand-alone complex applications (think for example to a word processor or a graphic tool)?
What IDE would you suggest? The IDLE provided with Python is not enough even for small projects in my opinion.
We've used IronPython to build our flagship spreadsheet application (40kloc production code - and it's Python, which IMO means loc per feature is low) at Resolver Systems, so I'd definitely say it's ready for production use of complex apps.
There are two ways in which this might not be a useful answer to you :-)
We're using IronPython, not the more usual CPython. This gives us the huge advantage of being able to use .NET class libraries. I may be setting myself up for flaming here, but I would say that I've never really seen a CPython application that looked "professional" - so having access to the WinForms widget set was a huge win for us. IronPython also gives us the advantage of being able to easily drop into C# if we need a performance boost. (Though to be honest we have never needed to do that. All of our performance problems to date have been because we chose dumb algorithms rather than because the language was slow.) Using C# from IP is much easier than writing a C Extension for CPython.
We're an Extreme Programming shop, so we write tests before we write code. I would not write production code in a dynamic language without writing the tests first; the lack of a compile step needs to be covered by something, and as other people have pointed out, refactoring without it can be tough. (Greg Hewgill's answer suggests he's had the same problem. On the other hand, I don't think I would write - or especially refactor - production code in any language these days without writing the tests first - but YMMV.)
Re: the IDE - we've been pretty much fine with each person using their favourite text editor; if you prefer something a bit more heavyweight then WingIDE is pretty well-regarded.
You'll find mostly two answers to that – the religous one (Yes! Of course! It's the best language ever!) and the other religious one (you gotta be kidding me! Python? No... it's not mature enough). I will maybe skip the last religion (Python?! Use Ruby!). The truth, as always, is far from obvious.
Pros: it's easy, readable, batteries included, has lots of good libraries for pretty much everything. It's expressive and dynamic typing makes it more concise in many cases.
Cons: as a dynamic language, has way worse IDE support (proper syntax completion requires static typing, whether explicit in Java or inferred in SML), its object system is far from perfect (interfaces, anyone?) and it is easy to end up with messy code that has methods returning either int or boolean or object or some sort under unknown circumstances.
My take – I love Python for scripting, automation, tiny webapps and other simple well defined tasks. In my opinion it is by far the best dynamic language on the planet. That said, I would never use it any dynamically typed language to develop an application of substantial size.
Say – it would be fine to use it for Stack Overflow, which has three developers and I guess no more than 30k lines of code. For bigger things – first your development would be super fast, and then once team and codebase grow things are slowing down more than they would with Java or C#. You need to offset lack of compilation time checks by writing more unittests, refactorings get harder cause you never know what your refacoring broke until you run all tests or even the whole big app, etc.
Now – decide on how big your team is going to be and how big the app is supposed to be once it is done. If you have 5 or less people and the target size is roughly Stack Overflow, go ahead, write in Python. You will finish in no time and be happy with good codebase. But if you want to write second Google or Yahoo, you will be much better with C# or Java.
Side-note on C/C++ you have mentioned: if you are not writing performance critical software (say massive parallel raytracer that will run for three months rendering a film) or a very mission critical system (say Mars lander that will fly three years straight and has only one chance to land right or you lose $400mln) do not use it. For web apps, most desktop apps, most apps in general it is not a good choice. You will die debugging pointers and memory allocation in complex business logic.
In my opinion python is more than ready for developing complex applications. I see pythons strength more on the server side than writing graphical clients. But have a look at http://www.resolversystems.com/. They develop a whole spreadsheet in python using the .net ironpython port.
If you are familiar with eclipse have a look at pydev which provides auto-completion and debugging support for python with all the other eclipse goodies like svn support. The guy developing it has just been bought by aptana, so this will be solid choice for the future.
#Marcin
Cons: as a dynamic language, has way
worse IDE support (proper syntax
completion requires static typing,
whether explicit in Java or inferred
in SML),
You are right, that static analysis may not provide full syntax completion for dynamic languages, but I thing pydev gets the job done very well. Further more I have a different development style when programming python. I have always an ipython session open and with one F5 I do not only get the perfect completion from ipython, but object introspection and manipulation as well.
But if you want to write second Google
or Yahoo, you will be much better with
C# or Java.
Google just rewrote jaiku to work on top of App Engine, all in python. And as far as I know they use a lot of python inside google too.
I really like python, it's usually my language of choice these days for small (non-gui) stuff that I do on my own.
However, for some larger Python projects I've tackled, I'm finding that it's not quite the same as programming in say, C++. I was working on a language parser, and needed to represent an AST in Python. This is certainly within the scope of what Python can do, but I had a bit of trouble with some refactoring. I was changing the representation of my AST and changing methods and classes around a lot, and I found I missed the strong typing that would be available to me in a C++ solution. Python's duck typing was almost too flexible and I found myself adding a lot of assert code to try to check my types as the program ran. And then I couldn't really be sure that everything was properly typed unless I had 100% code coverage testing (which I didn't at the time).
Actually, that's another thing that I miss sometimes. It's possible to write syntactically correct code in Python that simply won't run. The compiler is incapable of telling you about it until it actually executes the code, so in infrequently-used code paths such as error handlers you can easily have unseen bugs lurking around. Even code that's as simple as printing an error message with a % format string can fail at runtime because of mismatched types.
I haven't used Python for any GUI stuff so I can't comment on that aspect.
Python is considered (among Python programmers :) to be a great language for rapid prototyping. There's not a lot of extraneous syntax getting in the way of your thought processes, so most of the work you do tends to go into the code. (There's far less idioms required to be involved in writing good Python code than in writing good C++.)
Given this, most Python (CPython) programmers ascribe to the "premature optimization is the root of all evil" philosophy. By writing high-level (and significantly slower) Python code, one can optimize the bottlenecks out using C/C++ bindings when your application is nearing completion. At this point it becomes more clear what your processor-intensive algorithms are through proper profiling. This way, you write most of the code in a very readable and maintainable manner while allowing for speedups down the road. You'll see several Python library modules written in C for this very reason.
Most graphics libraries in Python (i.e. wxPython) are just Python wrappers around C++ libraries anyway, so you're pretty much writing to a C++ backend.
To address your IDE question, SPE (Stani's Python Editor) is a good IDE that I've used and Eclipse with PyDev gets the job done as well. Both are OSS, so they're free to try!
[Edit] #Marcin: Have you had experience writing > 30k LOC in Python? It's also funny that you should mention Google's scalability concerns, since they're Python's biggest supporters! Also a small organization called NASA also uses Python frequently ;) see "One coder and 17,000 Lines of Code Later".
Nothing to add to the other answers, besides that if you choose python you must use something like pylint which nobody mentioned so far.
One way to judge what python is used for is to look at what products use python at the moment. This wikipedia page has a long list including various web frameworks, content management systems, version control systems, desktop apps and IDEs.
As it says here - "Some of the largest projects that use Python are the Zope application server, YouTube, and the original BitTorrent client. Large organizations that make use of Python include Google, Yahoo!, CERN and NASA. ITA uses Python for some of its components."
So in short, yes, it is "proper for production use in the development of stand-alone complex applications". So are many other languages, with various pros and cons. Which is the best language for your particular use case is too subjective to answer, so I won't try, but often the answer will be "the one your developers know best".
Refactoring is inevitable on larger codebases and the lack of static typing makes this much harder in python than in statically typed languages.
And as far as I know they use a lot of python inside google too.
Well i'd hope so, the maker of python still works at google if i'm not mistaken?
As for the use of Python, i think it's a great language for stand-alone apps. It's heavily used in a lot of Linux programs, and there are a few nice widget sets out there to aid in the development of GUI's.
Python is a delight to use. I use it routinely and also write a lot of code for work in C#. There are two drawbacks to writing UI code in Python. one is that there is not a single ui framework that is accepted by the majority of the community. when you write in c# the .NET runtime and class libraries are all meant to work together. With Python every UI library has at's own semantics which are often at odds with the pythonic mindset in which you are trying to write your program. I am not blaming the library writers. I've tried several libraries (wxwidgets, PythonWin[Wrapper around MFC], Tkinter), When doing so I often felt that I was writing code in a language other than Python (despite the fact that it was python) because the libraries aren't exactly pythonic they are a port from another language be it c, c++, tk.
So for me I will write UI code in .NET (for me C#) because of the IDE & the consistency of the libraries. But when I can I will write business logic in python because it is more clear and more fun.
I know I'm probably stating the obvious, but don't forget that the quality of the development team and their familiarity with the technology will have a major impact on your ability to deliver.
If you have a strong team, then it's probably not an issue if they're familiar. But if you have people who are more 9 to 5'rs who aren't familiar with the technology, they will need more support and you'd need to make a call if the productivity gains are worth whatever the cost of that support is.
I had only one python experience, my trash-cli project.
I know that probably some or all problems depends of my inexperience with python.
I found frustrating these things:
the difficult of finding a good IDE for free
the limited support to automatic refactoring
Moreover:
the need of introduce two level of grouping packages and modules confuses me.
it seems to me that there is not a widely adopted code naming convention
it seems to me that there are some standard library APIs docs that are incomplete
the fact that some standard libraries are not fully object oriented annoys me
Although some python coders tell me that they does not have these problems, or they say these are not problems.
Try Django or Pylons, write a simple app with both of them and then decide which one suits you best. There are others (like Turbogears or Werkzeug) but those are the most used.